Emil sums up level scaling

Per

Vault Consort
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Emil Pagliarulo posted on the BGSF in response to people wondering (and worrying) about the inclusion of level scaling in Fallout 3:<blockquote>This has been mentioned several times in past threads and interviews, but for those who missed it:

-- Yes, there is a variation of level scaling used to control the difficulty of the main quest, so you can proceed through the game's main story at any time and have a good deal of it (not all) be balanced for to your level and abilities.

-- Other areas are "tethered" to certain levels

-- There are places in the Wasteland where, if you're not careful, you'll certainly get your ass handed to you. Best to leave and come back when you're better equipped/more skilled. Funny -- just a half hour ago, our effects artist, Grant Struthers, told me this awesome story about how he watched a Deathclaw just rip this (well armored) NPC to pieces...

-- That said, if you leave an area that's too difficult, and then return later, no you won't find that everything has increased in level, and it's now even tougher.

-- No, Raiders won't eventually be equipped with Power Armor.

The balance has been feeling really great, and the team is really confident that we've solved the level scaling issues we had in Oblivion. Yes, we identified those mistakes, and learned from them. *gasp!*</blockquote>Like he says, nothing really new, but a handy summary for those who have been asking about this lately.

Update with another Emil post:<blockquote>[That you can complete the game at level 1] is absolutely not true.

One important thing to remember about Fallout 3 is that the game uses an experience points based system of leveling; you don't level up based on skill usage. And, you get the majority of your XP from completing quests. So on the main quest path specifically, we are much better able to determine what level you'll be at -- especially your minimum level -- when you get to any specific quest.

So while we do some level scaling on the main quest, things are generally at the player's level anyway, because we know your minimum level along that path. And even where things are scaled to control difficulty, it's not like a Super Mutant is going to scale down to level 2 anyway. Most of the level scaling stuff we do is just to eliminate frustration at the lower levels.

So by the time you get to the end of the game, you're going to face challenges appropriate to the level you'd naturally be at.</blockquote>Quickly spotted by Ausir and trustno1.
 
Yes, we identified those mistakes, and learned from them. *gasp!*

You know what would be really cool? If Bethesda were actually able to identify the 'obvious' problems such as level scaling (and I'm quoting Pete on that) before they release their game, not afterwards.
 
So in other words, yes level scaling is in, but instead of denying it, they're now going with something like "trust us, we know what we're doing, this time".
 
No, Raiders won't eventually be equipped with Power Armor.
They will have Advanced Power Armor. R00fles!


So anyway, when it comes the main quest- you can do it any time? And MQ scales to your level?
 
Black said:
So anyway, when it comes the main quest- you can do it any time? And MQ scales to your level?

I think that's the idea, and if you still find it too hard apparently you can go level up and come back and it'll be just like you left.
 
Unillenium said:
Jesuit said:
Black said:
So anyway, when it comes the main quest- you can do it any time? And MQ scales to your level?

I think that's the idea, and if you still find it too hard apparently you can go level up and come back and it'll be just like you left.

So if you rush straight to the enclave at level 1 you will be fighting bloodthirsty baseball bat wielding mechanics with baseball caps? If you can't handle that you can go spend hundreds of hours doing side quests and then come back and they'll have mini nuke launchers and advanced power armor?

No it's the other way around, you'll come back with the nuke launchers and they'll still be sucky level one bad guys. Of course, unless the game is horribly designed you'd have to actually want to break the game for that to happen.
 
Unillenium said:
So if you rush straight to the enclave at level 1 you will be fighting bloodthirsty baseball bat wielding mechanics with baseball caps? If you can't handle that you can go spend hundreds of hours doing side quests and then come back and they'll have mini nuke launchers and advanced power armor?

Oh please. The bloodthirsty baseball bat wielding mechanics will have on their baseball caps AND their '+10 mech skillz' coveralls. (after looting, you'll feel more mechanically inclined in no time!) Sheesh.

Oh, and not all of the Enclavers will have mini-nuke launchers. In this system of balance and variety, some of them will have 'Nukklar Gloves' which detonate on impact. The ultimate melee funfest of destruction and carnage! GO NUKLAR!

(HINT: if you take out the glove-users stealthily, you'll find special 'nuke-be-gone' pills on their bodies, essential for avoiding accidents from close proximity to miniature NUKLAR explosions if you decide to utilize this awesome weapon.)
 
winterraptor said:
'Nukklar Gloves' which detonate on impact. The ultimate melee funfest of destruction and carnage! GO NUKLAR!
Which will result in a palm-sized mushroom cloud, because of course the Falloutz sure do need as many of those as can be crammed in there. Oh, and don't forget to mention that it would cause the target's limbs AND digits to fly off randomly no matter which body part you hit, because that's totally kewl (yes, I'm speaking Bethesdan) and next gen!

I just don't trust Bethesda to have learned their lesson or to stick to what they say. I won't be surprised at all if really bad level-scaling makes it back in before release for whatever crazy reason.
 
Jesuit said:
No it's the other way around, you'll come back with the nuke launchers and they'll still be sucky level one bad guys. Of course, unless the game is horribly designed you'd have to actually want to break the game for that to happen.

Nope - the guy you are answering is talking about the main quest, which WILL be scaled.
 
I think this sounds like a good solution. remains to be seen if they implement it well.

sure it can be discussed if there is any meaning to have level scaling at all. but in a game this big where you can get very powerful towards the end, I'm pretty sure it'd suck to have done everything and then playing through the main quests as if you were in god mode.
 
Sigh. Level 1 completes the game.

That's bad. I imagine the big bad ass boss at the end, the uber monster, will be something that a level 2 gecko has a chance of taking down. Stupid.
 
Funny -- just a half hour ago, our effects artist, Grant Struthers, told me this awesome story about how he watched a Deathclaw just rip this (well armored) NPC to pieces...
The deathclaw probably threw a teddybear at the NPC :wink:
 
Tygernoot said:
Funny -- just a half hour ago, our effects artist, Grant Struthers, told me this awesome story about how he watched a Deathclaw just rip this (well armored) NPC to pieces...
The deathclaw probably threw a teddybear at the NPC :wink:

you know... all these teddybear jokes etc don't make this community look funny and witty but rather stubborn and ignorant.

it's been said over and over that the damage of Rock-It ammo depends on its weight, which most likely means teddybears won't do jack harm. the reason Todd's teddybears do harm in the demos is most likely because because his character is so damn beefed up that he can kill enemies with the teddybears for comical effect. you might not have noticed, but it looks like all the Rock-It Launcher shoots in the demos are teddybears even though he put it lots of other ammo there.
 
Jesuit said:
Unillenium said:
Jesuit said:
Black said:
So anyway, when it comes the main quest- you can do it any time? And MQ scales to your level?

I think that's the idea, and if you still find it too hard apparently you can go level up and come back and it'll be just like you left.

So if you rush straight to the enclave at level 1 you will be fighting bloodthirsty baseball bat wielding mechanics with baseball caps? If you can't handle that you can go spend hundreds of hours doing side quests and then come back and they'll have mini nuke launchers and advanced power armor?

No it's the other way around, you'll come back with the nuke launchers and they'll still be sucky level one bad guys. Of course, unless the game is horribly designed you'd have to actually want to break the game for that to happen.
I disagree, I think that it will be very easy to break the game for anyone who does much exploring and for players who do a lot of exploring I think that large portions of the game will be ruined. I heard a lot of talk about exploring in Oblivion and I've heard some with Fallout 3 aswell but the issue is that exploring for the sake of exploring and going to an area to check whether or not you can handle it are two different things. If you set out from the Vault and start exploring, ignoring quests and such, I think that you could seriously screw the amount of fun that you'll have later in the game by locking mid to high level areas at their minimum encounter level.

The level locking is really the only part of the system that I think is flawed, the rest actually sounds pretty good to me, but I think it could easily be a damning flaw in a open-world game.

Mr. Teatime said:
Sigh. Level 1 completes the game.

That's bad. I imagine the big bad ass boss at the end, the uber monster, will be something that a level 2 gecko has a chance of taking down. Stupid.
In the past they have said that they have lower limits (base encounter level or something) so that you can't beat the game at level 1. What concerns me is that it sounds like you have to play through all of the main quest and can't skip parts, accedentally or intentionally (hence why they have unkillable NPCs which, it's been said, magically become mortal once their useless). That's fine in some games I just prefered Fallout's way of handling it better, especially in a Fallout game...
 
aenemic said:
you know... all these teddybear jokes etc don't make this community look funny and witty but rather stubborn and ignorant.

whats worse, a community who appears to be stubborn and ignorant when discussing certian portions of FO3, or beths vision of FO3 which is a polar oppisite of the original spirit, goal and vision?

because, you know, its not like RT mechanics were not around and being done way before FO1.

people make fun of beths FO and ridicule it because of how badly beth missed the mark. if we had to be honest with ourselves we would be weeping with this travesty.
 
aenemic said:
it's been said over and over that the damage of Rock-It ammo depends on its weight, which most likely means teddybears won't do jack harm. the reason Todd's teddybears do harm in the demos is most likely because because his character is so damn beefed up that he can kill enemies with the teddybears for comical effect. you might not have noticed, but it looks like all the Rock-It Launcher shoots in the demos are teddybears even though he put it lots of other ammo there.

Bethesda made the highly dubitable decisions of putting "funny" teddybear dismemberment in their public demo, and we shouldn't make fun of it...

...because?
 
aenemic said:
you know... all these teddybear jokes etc don't make this community look funny and witty but rather stubborn and ignorant.

it's been said over and over that the damage of Rock-It ammo depends on its weight, which most likely means teddybears won't do jack harm. the reason Todd's teddybears do harm in the demos is most likely because because his character is so damn beefed up that he can kill enemies with the teddybears for comical effect. you might not have noticed, but it looks like all the Rock-It Launcher shoots in the demos are teddybears even though he put it lots of other ammo there.
So your excuse for why it's acceptable is that it's a misrepresentation of the product? Isn't that usually a black mark against a demonstration of a product?

Also keep in mind that Bethesda likes to talk up their games but sometimes what they say isn't really what the ends up in the product, take the Oblivion gameplay footage of Radiant AI where they talked about how their AI could do random daily activities that didn't end up in the game. The Rock-It Launcher may end up doing different amounts of damage depending on the weight of the object or it may not (his character was so jacked that it's not possible to tell from the demo) but it seems like if you're going to implement something "cool" like that that you would show it off. Also, I saw at least one video of gameplay footage in which the Rock-It Launcher shot an ashtray so the demo didn't have the Rock-It Launcher always shoot teddy bears.
 
aenemic said:
because his character is so damn beefed up that he can kill enemies with the teddybears for comical effect.
Considering all the lip-service they gave earlier about wanting the game to have a more serious tone and contain less immature/childish things (like groin shots apparently), having a demo that contains something so silly and stupid leaves them wide open to be mocked. They should try to be more consistent than saying "we want a serious, dark and gritty tone" then turning around and saying "violence is fucking funny!" and showing a demo that has ridiculous deaths caused by launched teddy bears for 'comical effect'.

When it comes to demos, I'm interested in seeing (not reading about) the game played with a normal character instead of a character beefed up by cheats and a poorly implemented perk.
 
so classic for this forum. some dude says something, and 30 other members are throwing rocks in his freakin' head! get a life!

and no, i am not a troll, i mostly visit nma for fallout information, plus i am anxious for fallout 3 to show up, so i check nma' news every day. but instead of people saying something constructive, people keep making the same STUPID jokes. and i love it when people here just pick on INSIGNIFICANT things just to pick on something related to fallout 3.

pfff! :wink:
 
I'm not saying you're all wrong for finding it funny (rather laughing at Bethesda than with them). I'm just pointing out how these constant "witty" remarks make this community look. and you're surprised people write negatively about you?

on the subject of Bethesda not implementing everything 100% the way they make it sound in the press, well... at least they're trying to make a functional game. remember how barely playable Fallout 2 was when it was released?

(disclaimer: I'm not a Beth fanboy, I don't work for them, I love the old Fallout games, blah blah.... I'm just being realistic.)
 
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