Fanatic for the Enclave - Glory to the Enclave

E

EnclaveForever

It Wandered In From the Wastes
Something has always fascinated me about the Enclave, it wasn't just their ominous power armor (I am referring to the Advanced Power Armor Mark II, not the Fallout 3 variant), it was the ideals put forth. Idealism would seemingly become non-existent after global nuclear war, but the Enclave held on, not only did they held on, but they re-emerged as the most powerful force in the wasteland that ultimately, if the developers were not so against them, would've easily blown apart the "Chosen One". Of course the Enclave are far from Constitutional, let alone holding legitimate moral justification for their plans (which I do believe in the pure/near/sub-human concepts), but then again, the Constitution was clearly never designed for post-nuclear war circumstances and therefore would require extensive editing to ensure the nation's survival after such a conflict. The Enclave understand fully and clearly what necessary actions need to be done to purify the wastes of the criminal impurity. Just look at towns such as Klamath which appears as fairly innocent town that relies its economy on the sale of Golden Geckos, is riddled with prostitution and degeneracy.

America needed the Enclave to exterminate all the evil the nuclear fallout has erected from the ashes of America, all the survivors are just unfortunate victims of a war that they could not control nor prevent, but are plagued with mutation and genetic defects. It is rather unfortunate that these people somehow survived the harmful effects of radiation, but the Enclave are noble to wish to put the mass of these mutants out of their misery.

Anyhow, clearly I support the Enclave's goals and objectives and was quite disappointed when I saw the Oil Rig explode in Fallout 2 because of a fixed story line (don't get me wrong, Fallout 2 was my favourite out of all the games in the series, I can't bring myself to play anymore New Vegas, Fallout 3 was slightly acceptable). I wonder if there are many other fans of the Enclave out there? Not just fans of their power armor, but also their ideals, the idea of a pure America (not referring to ethnicity). I've found some fans and supporters on various Fallout websites, mostly on Wikia, but have met brutal opposition (one of which told me to impale myself on a pole holding the American flag).

I dear hope that many do not use petty morals to attempt to degrade the Enclave's efforts. I think judging a group based off their apparent lack of proper "moral values" in a post-apocalyptic future where most of humanity has been banished in nuclear fire and rain does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

Warning this thread has turned slightly into a flame debate based off morality, read beyond the first page at your own risk. I've tried all I can in attempt to reason with the others, but read if you're curious. I have ceased to provide any further comments regarding this thread as some posts have been nonconstructive and includes the use of put downs and vulgar language. Contact me via private message if you wish to discuss any fan related comments if you're also a fellow patriot.

GOD BLESS THE ENCLAVE, GOD BLESS AMERICA.
E PLURIBUS UNUM.
 
Those Enclave fans on wikia are annoying as hell.
Personally, I dont care for any faction exceptionally, just for all Fallout and it lore.
It's good for Fallout lore to have BoS and Enclave dead? So bye bye. etc.

As for Enclave, FO3 ruined it, I mean, most of Enclave fans likes reincarnation from FO3, which makes me sick.
Enclave was hillarious, like Master and his army, but then FO3 came and makes them immortal but always weak opponents.
 
I think Sauron of Mordor is misunderstood. If it wasn't for that pesky author, he would surely have gotten a much better reputation among the readers. Sauron was well versed in what he had to do to unify Middle earth, an effort that would prevent future wars - an inherently noble ideal.

I found myself greatly dissapointed, and full of genuine disbelief, when I was finally informed of the downfall of Mordor, and the destruction of Sauron. I didn't expect that at all.

For a clear cut "dark lord", seeking to destroy all opposition to his world-domination ambitions, to be vanquished in the climax of the good-vs-evil story, does not make a whole lot of sense to me.
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
As for Enclave, FO3 ruined it, I mean, most of Enclave fans likes reincarnationfrom FO3, which makes me sick.
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Only a fan of the Enclave in Fallout 2, would love to have them come back, but not Bethesda's version. Frank Horrigan was probably the most menacing character I've ever seen in a game, especially the voice acting.

zegh8578 said:
I think Sauron of Mordor is misunderstood. If it wasn't for that pesky author, he would surely have gotten a much better reputation among the readers. Sauron was well versed in what he had to do to unify Middle earth, an effort that would prevent future wars - an inherently noble ideal.
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Agreed completely, I typically side with the apparent "evil" in roleplay games, not because I believe in "evil" ideals, but because sometimes these so-called "evil and sadistic" groups/people actually have a stronger character and a better sense of self-control, idealists also are usually self-motivated and very incorruptible.
 
BonusWaffle said:
The only reason sauron and the enclave are "bad guys" is because they lost.
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Absolutely correct.

The only reason why they lost is because the writers decided the most sophisticated and well equipped forces on the planet could be defeated by a group of muties and a descended tribal of a near-human.

Tagaziel said:
Don't forget the carnage and piles of corpses they caused.
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Mutants are useful for two things and two things only:

1. Slave labor
2. Target practice
 
I'll try my hardest not to fulfill the precepts of Godwin's Law here, and instead just say that The Enclave's premises are flawed on more levels than I've got the time to go into right now. Apologies if I fail in my attempt to keep things brief.

1. They're not America, or really even American, except in the most technical sense: they were founded extralegally by a shadow cabal and based in what were most likely international waters (judging from the incredibly minor percentage of the Pacific under U.S. control and the fact that the U.S. government felt the need to sabotage China's rig project to ensure the success of their own). They don't hold themselves to any of the basics of American Constitutional governance, or to anybody's idea of the "founding principles" they pay lip service to. "Martial law" and "doing what it takes" as justifications can only be stretched so far before they break, and I think that happens somewhere before the 200 year mark. There are vanishingly few (legitimate, not-just-"because-we-say-so") points where The Enclave and "America" as a concept or a political entity overlap. All they really are are a parody of the worst elements of the American governmental-corporate tag team whose claim on being "the last true Americans" is as tenuous in practicality as any of the other power groups that trace their lineage to the American military or government.

2. Their "strong character" is hardly better than anything you see in the wasteland. You find drugs on the rig, you find prejudice, you find abuse of power and sexual shenanigans-- it's just that the prejudice is openly touted as virtue and the rest of it happens behind closed doors, like in the good old days. That hardly makes it more laudable. The wasteland, at least, is honest with itself. If there's more violence there than on the rig, chalk it up to the lack of a unilateral power structure whose enforcers have power armor and really big guns. Order wouldn't be likely to last if The Enclave got to establish their new hegemony on the mainland and left it to simmer for awhile.

3. Their claims of superiority are questionable, if not laughable. Evolution as a process takes external environmental factors (man-made or not) into account, making wastelanders no less naturally human than the inhabitants of the rig-- making them more human, it could be argued, if one takes into account that Enclave "purity" is only made possible by thoroughly technological means and isolation from the environment. Even were they to "retake" the continent, they would be less suited to their environment than the people they'd killed off of it, and within a generation continued exposure to the same environmental factors as the Wastelanders that came before them would result in the same (or comparable) rates and types of mutation within their population.

Furthermore, their society has become markedly stratified and stagnant. The only aspects of it seeing advancement instead of stall or decline are military R&D and obedience to authority.

In short, they're an illegitimate cult of power-hungry thugs, patterned on (boastful of!) the worst pre-war practices, attitudes, and ideals, and their plan was doomed to self-destruction from the start, if not in as dramatic a fashion as The Master's. It's possible to cherry-pick a few commendable qualities from their quagmire of repression and militant xenophobia, but on the whole they're sheltered, ignorant, self-fellating techno-fascists. I've never seen a lot to admire there.

Edit: Godwin's Law, not Moore's.
 
I feel like Yamu got shit covered.

Though I would like to interject just my own bias that if an organization like the Enclave came into power again a nuclear holocaust repeating in the future wouldn't seem too unlikely.

The wasteland is a place where humanity can be reborn and learn from their past mistakes. I don't think the Enclave wanted to learn anything, just more of what got the world to where it was in the first place.

That being said, the Enclave made excellent villains. God it felt good to kill the president. In the 6th grade I wrote a fallout 'fan fiction' for a class project about murdering the president and went heavy into details of his brains sliding down the walls. The heroine in the story was also a drug addicted sex fiend. I wonder what my teacher thought, not knowing it was based on a game.
 
Yamu said:
Furthermore, their society has become markedly stratified and stagnant. The only aspects of it seeing advancement instead of stall or decline are military R&D and obedience to authority.
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And that is exactly why I like them, not a patriot I see, but you brought up some interesting points, unfortunately at the end of the day, Enclave was the best hope humanity had. Now only modifications and other additions can bring them back unfortunately.

I see you don't particular see a liking in their classification of sub-humans, it's no doubt that radiation exposure would definitely effect them too, if they were foolish enough to expose themselves. The Enclave is a sealed unit however, they have remained clean and pure from before the bombs fell, the survivors in the wastes have been exposed to harmful radiation for generations and we all know that there is no such thing as "positive effects" of radiation, unless you consider an increase in mortality to be "more human".

Anyhow, we have different points of view, not going to say you're wrong or right, it is just a game after all, but I'm glad you kept morality out of it :)

Always Faithful, God Bless the Enclave.
 
EnclaveForever said:
Enclave is a sealed unit however, they have remained clean and pure from before the bombs fell, the survivors in the wastes have been exposed to harmful radiation for generations and we all know that there is no such thing as "positive effects" of radiation, unless you consider an increase in mortality to be "more human".
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Since they're a "sealed unit", they are too technologically dependable. And too fragile.
Their bodies are used to sterile environment and complete outside exposure would probably be quite harmful to majority of Enclave troops, unlike common wastelanders, who have survived and are still living in the wasteland for more than a hundred (or two hundred years, depending on which game we're focused).
During that time, they have adapted and become used to these harsher conditions, have mutated and reproduced what is, genetically, most likely a different "version" of human being, when compared to the "pure" humans of pre-War times and Enclave. The "wastelander" type of human is feeling at home in the wastes - Enclave member probably is not.

Enclave may have technological and military superiority (though that is debatable, considering what BoS and Unity had during their time, and NCR, subsequently), but looking from the standpoint of single person, single human being - a biological entity - majority of Enclave ubermensch were far more fragile and probably would not last as long as an ordinary, well-equipped wastelander in the harmful conditions of the wastes.
 
Atomkilla said:
Since they're a "sealed unit", they are too technologically dependable. And too fragile.
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I agree with the fact that they are heavily dependable on technology and their physical bodies are quite fragile in comparison to the "hard-callus" mutated wastelanders.

It's quite clear Dick Richardson looks rather pale and very sterile (not referring to fertility) in this image of the President:
char_85222.jpg

Always Faithful, Mr. President, God Bless the Enclave.
You can almost certainly suspect that other Enclave citizens would look of similar tone as well. However, me also being a transhumanist, the physical body decays over time and there isn't really any sufficient replacement parts for organic material. Technology can be made more durable, stronger and much more efficient. Although the Enclave may lack the "natural strength" (though mutated and deformed) of the wastelanders, their technology and absolutely dominating power armor make up for that. I'm glad nobody has brought up the whole deal with "Frank Horrigan" as he is just an exclusive and isolated exception among the ranks of the Enclave. Power armor is simply like an upgrade in comparison to the human condition, sure power armor needs a lot of maintenance, but then again a human body wouldn't last nearly as long if it got shot up as well.

Does that mean however that the Enclave is less human because of their copious amounts of technology and the reliance on such technologies? Not at all. Their genetics still remain intact and pure.

I appreciate all the appropriate responses :)
 
I do wonder if The Enclave as a "sealed unit" is really the case, though. The rig's occupants certainly make the cut, and though it's my inclination to disregard the events of Fallout 3, most of the personnel at Raven Rock were probably adequately shielded as well. It's not uncommon to see unmasked personnel (officers and the like) walking the grounds at Enclave bases and forward positions in the Capital Wasteland, though, and a good number of aboveground personnel at Navarro were completely unprotected. Navarro especially bears scrutiny here, considering that the low-level baseline mutation which the Enclave decided disqualified Core Region wastelanders (as well as, taking the jetstream into account, people all over the globe) from the world of the living was caused not only by residual fallout, but by exposure to minute quantities of airborne FEV. If Curling-13 FEV was as sensitive to mutant genes as Enclave scientists believed, I think it would be a fair wager that it would have eliminated a number of Enclave personnel as well as mainlanders upon its release.

Even if they were to somehow avoid exposure and to build themselves a completely hermetically sealed fascist utopia on the mainland, they would be operating under the exact same resource constraints as the pre-war government (stricter constraints, in fact, considering that much of the salvageable materials of the old world would be unusable due to contamination and that new mining operations would be nigh-impossible to keep "clean"). This would mean that they would ultimately have to arrive at one of two scenarios: "going native" and moving out into the unprotected environment, or keeping to pre-existing sealed facilities and what few more they could manage to build (and thus ultimately holding the world's "true human" population to a scattered handful of statistically insignificant kernels under tight control, perpetually unable to expand, existing exclusively to obey their elitist superiors and stave off, in only the most technical sense, the eve of human extinction).

Transhumanist evolution options run up against the same resource constraints, as well as a much more crucial one: population density. The Enclave does boast some of the (if not the) most gifted scientists in the post-nuclear world, but their numbers are far too low. You can train personnel to competence, or even excellence, but not to brilliance. The kind of innovation required to elevate the Enclave's tech level to the point where true transhuman augmentation becomes a possibility (disregarding the contentious issue of F3's androids) would take the kind of brilliance that a society the size of The Enclave's would be statistically unlikely to produce on any sort of realistic timeline without a massive population expansion. That leads us back to the two scenarios outlined above-- they either expand, at the ideological cost of their core mission, or they remain numerically insignificant. In the latter case, the goal could eventually be achieved, but given the timeframe most likely required and the nature of autocratic military regimes partitioned into discrete parcels of authority, factionalization and/or internecine revolution would be likely to hamper the project irreparably before their goal could be achieved.

(I must say, EnclaveForever, this discussion is turning out rather better than I thought it would given the history of "OOH-RAH ENCLAVE" trolling around here. Bravo.)
 
Yamu said:
It's not uncommon to see unmasked personnel (officers and the like) walking the grounds at Enclave bases and forward positions in the Capital Wasteland, though, and a good number of aboveground personnel at Navarro were completely unprotected. Navarro especially bears scrutiny here, considering that the low-level baseline mutation which the Enclave decided disqualified Core Region wastelanders (as well as, taking the jetstream into account, people all over the globe) from the world of the living was caused not only by residual fallout, but by exposure to minute quantities of airborne FEV.
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I cannot argue or counter these statements as they are fact, therefore I have to agree (unless I believe in denialism). Referring to the appearances in Fallout 2 only (the officers displayed in Fallout 3 were an utter failure in my opinion, not saying the design of their uniforms was bad, but the fact that they were left completely exposed), these appearances could either be the result of a small error by the developers (and or writers) or could be actually intentional. For example, here is a fine quote by President Dick Richardson:

"A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity."

Of course he could just be referring to the occupants of Vault 13, but he may also be referring to any Enclave personnel deemed as "cannon-fodder" for their great plan. They may have also done tests on various environmental levels around the area of Navarro and found that is was safe for momentary exposure (if it was me, I would never take that chance).

Yamu said:
(I must say, EnclaveForever, this discussion is turning out rather better than I thought it would given the history of "OOH-RAH ENCLAVE" trolling around here. Bravo.)
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I never like starting flame wars, the Internet is a great place for communication, but must be used responsibly. Besides the only right way to fight a flame war is with flamethrowers and a lot of fuel. Most of those "fans" may not be interested in the actual ideals and philosophy behind the Enclave, they may just like them for their power armor and or superior weaponry.
 
EnclaveForever said:
Does that mean however that the Enclave is less human because of their copious amounts of technology and the reliance on such technologies? Not at all. Their genetics still remain intact and pure.
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Intact and pure? Wouldn't relying on tech for an extended period of time lead to eventual devolution? Do the ideals or "templates" for intact and pure change as well, keep in step with the devolution? Sounds like someone is looking into a mirror and lying to themselves if they think otherwise.

I dig transhumanist ideas yet I have no illusions that it will have a devastating/catalytic effect on the human condition as we know it (even what the Enclave defines as "human" in 2242)

EnclaveForever said:
"A lot of near-humans will sacrifice their lives for the return of humanity."
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combined with this the Enclave's mission will only ever look good on paper. these people would sacrifice themselves so that there could be a sample of pre-war human genome in a hermetic chamber under a mountain. calling it living is a stretch, my friend.

As for the Enclave's plans - doesn't it say anywhere that they planned to cleanse the Earth and then go out when the atmosphere is clean enough? I seem to remember that this was the whole point of killing all the muties and subhumans in the first place - to return on solid land - but you guys are way better versed in facts and lore on this subject...
 
All that talk about pure genetics just sounds lik plain old eugenics. Going by that part of their spiel is like trying to justify the KKK by talking about the supposed inferiority of the black man.
 
Gaspard said:
I dig transhumanist ideas yet I have no illusions that it will have a devastating/catalytic effect on the human condition as we know it (even what the Enclave defines as "human" in 2242)
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The Enclave remained completely isolated from the devastating effects of global nuclear war and the fallout that occurred afterwards. They remained safe and pure in their seized Poseidon Oil Rig, though their physical bodies may have become slimmer and more pale, they come from a pure genetic line (not referring to ethnicity or "race"). The tribals presented throughout the Fallout games have done very little extensive research into how "extensive" the effects of mutation have caused on the human condition. Therefore them making claims that they are apparently just as "pure" as the Enclave is not based off any scientific evidence what so ever. Instead, Enclave scientists have researched for years the harmful effects of mutation both caused by the FEV and nuclear fallout and have concluded that allowing wastelanders to further reproduce would endanger the future of the nation. Of course the Enclave are likely a slight "spin-off" of Nazi "eugenic ideals", but are far different in their execution and application of such ideals.

As for the Enclave's plans - doesn't it say anywhere that they planned to cleanse the Earth and then go out when the atmosphere is clean enough? I seem to remember that this was the whole point of killing all the muties and subhumans in the first place - to return on solid land - but you guys are way better versed in facts and lore on this subject...
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Of course! This is exactly the plan! However, you must assume that they would have to remain "air-tight sealed" until the radiation eventually settles down. The mainland or overall "core region" attempt cleansing was only the start, though the modified FEV was suppose to wipe out the global mutant population. They had to start somewhere, removing the occupants of the land before they're able to start up competitive civilizations (such as the New California Republic) would be their first objective.

Always Faithful.
 
Walpknut said:
All that talk about pure genetics just sounds lik plain old eugenics. Going by that part of their spiel is like trying to justify the KKK by talking about the supposed inferiority of the black man.
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No...no..no, the Enclave do not define "purity" by pigmentation, do not confuse their ideals with that of the Nazis or "Ku Klux Klan" which both have nothing to do with their ideology (well, probably some level of white "privilege" exists, but minuscule). Besides, African Americans, Hispanics, Caucasians, men and women serve in the Enclave, there is no discrimination in that area. They just hate muties.

They have united all their "races" (pigmentation) to a common enemy, the muties of the wasteland. They constantly preach "humanity", "humans", "pure", never "white power".
 
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