Pale Horse ponders Military Life for Meaning

[Paladin Solo]

After this post I'm sure PS is going to vote on W's gang again. PS Go back to sleep. eh. After all theses years you keep the same. Big Heh.... Welsh and this obsession with the size of Bush's cock?

If Republicans present a better candidate than the Democrat's, you can bet your left nut I will. And it'll be the first time I vote, actually.

Go back to sleep? Noone here can fucking read can they? I would've voted (if I could) for Bush because I didn't like the other guy. Give me more fucking options, or shut the fuck up.

What I find amusing is when people tell me what I should believe, and yet they bitch and moan and claim that I listen to someone who lies and tells me what to believe, when the whole fucking time, I don't give a rat's ass who's fucking who, because I believe in what I hold to be true. Not what you want me to think, not what they want me to think. ME! I live my life, not yours, not theirs.

Go to sleep? Fuck you.

 

[Roshambo]

Heh, well, we cant all be freaky large like you man. However from a collectors standpoint, your grandmothers uniform would be quite a thing to have.

<OFFTOPIC>
We do plan, someday, to donate a few of the uniforms from our family to a museum. Skip this next paragraph if you hate soppy stories, because this one will make you puke your eyeballs out from how cliché it sounds.

My grandmother was a nurse in WWII, while my grandfather was a bomber/fighter pilot. His wing shears right into a Nazi plane, and he bails out to chute onto the roof of a barn (the planes took out a bit of the nearby fields), the next one over from where my Mme lived. He meets her in a French nursing station due to a broken leg. Which he got from jumping off the side of the barn when there was a ladder on the other side - he was pretty hopped up on adrenalin and didn't think, was just trying to get to safety that he almost committed a Darwin Award right there.

We still have the flight jacket that he wore then, too.

Mme married, and soon wore a US Nurse' uniform and changed posts after being made a citizen (she was before then basically a volunteer), and that was mainly for being recognized by many army commanders in helping keep up the spirits of the wounded while not even being paid for it while US troops were on French soil. She was multi-lingual and had an impressive library that I think is *still* at the farm.

Still trying to talk a buddy's dad into selling me a japanese officers sword his father brought back from asia.

My dad has a few Thai weapons from when he was over there in Nam. Some of the ceremonial swords are impressive for pure ornamentation and inscribing upon the blade, it's amazing to think that the Siam has crumbled so. I still love the people, because from the food to the ceremonies, it is far more vibrant and community-centric than pretty much anyone in the US would know besides a vocalizing church congregation. Simply amazing how the times change over just a few decades, and people think this little world of cement is going to last forever?

Gotta love Dr. Who.

On topic +1

Ditto.

Never said it wasnt headin there, I am however hopeing that people will come to their senses and that Civil War can be avoided.

I was just saying this in general. It looks like a lot of people have found a lot of incriminating evidence to show that the war in Iraq is illegal, which was planned by Bush and Blair when Bush was trying to preach otherwise for months and say that Saddam was dragging us into a war. Okay...now why isn't anyone doing anything about it?

Elections in general don't really do a damn thing when it's Fucked vs. Likely Fucked as Well. What is to stop Cheney from becoming President now and have the Bush family buy his way like Jeb did for Jethro...I mean, George?

As for the reciprocal actions part, that was also more in general.

Like i said, I can still hold out hope for some common sense and restraint from the people of my country.

But The way things are headed, I'm really not worried about my pack a day smoking habbit killing me.

On that thought...

*lights one*

Here's to hoping I don't have to see how messily my kid will die from this fucked up world.

I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, but I do know that I am in a position make a life-changing choice this summer. I'm not joining the military because I believe in the good fight for Iraqi freedom, but because I feel I have something to prove to myself. I want to make a difference. Let me make my mistakes, as it is easier for me to learn from mine, then to learn from others. I'm eager, optimistic, and young, I can't help it.

Try telling that to my face months down the line, if you're not dead at the whim of some idiot in the meantime. Other than stupidity, what are you enlisting for? Certainly not the lie of the new GI Bill, or any of the other promised benefits. Nor for ideals.

Fighting for what you believe in is one thing. Fighting to prove something is just stupidity, because then you just put your life on the line for pride. Part of military training is tearing down your pride, but what if the pride they try to instill into you doesn't suit you? But, what do I know, I'm just a silly vet that's seen far too many kids fresh from Urban High thrown through the ringer of the military's broken contracts and promises, the shitty VA system, who now live with us as 1/3 of this country's homeless. Nice of you to get that high school diploma, but once you're back here and wounded, unable to work and on the street, what do you want to accomplish then? Learning how to panhandle with a bloody stump is one of your future dreamed accomplishments? Do you have any idea what the impact of a combat environment is on a person's post-war life? Do you have any other idea of what you're doing other than your life seems to be going nowhere, and you seem to be wanting change, no matter at how ignorantly that decision is made?

Go goth for a week, as it seems to fit your attitude. It's cheaper and at least you're not being a possible liability out on the field when the life doesn't seem to suit you. Your attitude is a problem out on the field and for a cohesive unit, and once the illusions come crashing down, you're a Pvt. SNAFU liability. I know two people who died due to people like you, so I suggest you take an ounce of wisdom, or the friend of the person whom you just got killed won't care to stop shattering your entire fucking body at just the elbows and knees. I didn't have such restraint the second time, and I was lucky there was someone larger than me there to stop me from snapping the stupid bastard's neck.

There are many other ways to "prove yourself" that don't threaten your life and the lives of others, and in all likelihood lead to a higher income and better state of living.

 

[Paladin Solo]

I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm worth something. If that means taking a bullet for a friend with a wife and kids back home praying everyday that he gets back safe and sound, all limbs attached, than that's what it means.

Liability? Well, I guess I'm not there yet, but I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out. If you don't hear back from me, then you'll know either way. I've seen post-war syndrome's effects first hand. I've noticed a different face from family and friends back from wars past and present. I've been threatened with death in a friendly poker game by a vet-gone-mad. I don't want to be that, but it's a risk I'll take.

What life do I have to live here? What do I do here that I can't do over there? I'm trying to get my shit together. I'll pay the price if I have to. If there's a chance of making a difference, I'll take it.

 

[Roshambo]

I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm worth something. If that means taking a bullet for a friend with a wife and kids back home praying everyday that he gets back safe and sound, all limbs attached, than that's what it means.

With a mentality like that, how could I argue?

Human kevlar, go you. Heroic jumping in front of a bullet.

Don't forget to put in the cheat codes first, kid.

Liability? Well, I guess I'm not there yet, but I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out. If you don't hear back from me, then you'll know either way.

With a mentality like that, I really don't want to know. It's probably better that way.

 

[Paladin Solo]

For fuck's sake. I know it's not a game. Never said it was.

Can we get back on topic? Or do you want to argue the reasons for me choosing lifestyles some more?

 

[Roshambo]

For fuck's sake. I know it's not a game. Never said it was.

Then why are you treating it as one?

You seem to think that you're something if you pass basic training. You're really not. Millions before you and millions will likely follow you.

You seem to think that you're something if you make it out of the war alive. You're really no better than 1/3 of the homeless which mainly consists of veterans from the last shit war (Nam) and a number from THIS war. Yet you expect the military to suddenly fix your life. In fact, talk to a number of people a hell of a lot worse off for being in the military, but they at least had a reason to be there no matter how it left them. Talk to some Korean and WWII veterans, some of the more sane Nam veterans, and get a better understanding of how it changes you.

Believe me, this is hurting them, as is seeing people enlist for the wrong reason. Unless you can live without the military, or plan on making it a career without ever being wounded to take you out of service, you have no reason to join the military.

So, what is this defining point for you, or do you have a goal other than to enlist and see what happens?

Joining the military for pride or to find a purpose is perhaps the worst one of all, since the Army can use the grunt who says "I want to kill people". First, the military tears down your pride. Once your pride is torn down, you will have to conform to a completely different life than you know now, and you think your life is dull and dreary now? Try freezing your ass off on a 0000-0400 aft watch, and all you do is stand there and...watch. Sentry duty is, compared to many other kinds of duty, rather eventful and a blessing. You could be designated as the Major's personal asslicker. You really don't know what job you will be given, and if you are seemingly this aimless, then that doesn't look too good for your prospects.

If the life suddenly doesn't suit you, then what? You decide to change your life by joining, but what if military life doesn't suit you? You can't easily just jump out of an enlistment as you jumped into it, and believe it or not, if you don't fit, you're likely to fuck up.

This is most evident in how you think the Army will suddenly make your life better. A simple, inelegant solution with a dubious outcome, one that makes me believe that you will likely do the same thing in a professional capacity once you have become comfortable or rebellious in service.

Just try and tell me I'm wrong about this. I'm not saying it for MY benefit. Did you have the same outlook on life back in earlier grades, that you would graduate high school to prove yourself worth something? Feel like you've proven anything yet? No? Apparently not, with your attitude. So then why is enlisting supposed to "prove something"?

You're not selling me with "at least I'll be worth something if I'm a meat shield", when the likelihood of that scenario is remote, and that is your best outlook on life. Career Choice: Bullet Sponge

Go you.

Can we get back on topic? Or do you want to argue the reasons for me choosing lifestyles some more?

Why not? It seems like a lot of kids were similarly stupid straight from high school but otherwise without any direction in life and see it as a quick and easy solution instead of an entire change of your life. And now they're dying to break mommy's heart, and also bringing in a crappy attitude that gets other troops killed, those who enlisted with a reason.

What did it for you, "An Army of One"?

 

[Paladin Solo]

Then why are you treating it as one?

So because someone has a different outlook on life that you don't agree with, it makes them wrong and stupid. Let me get my notebook out and jot down a few notes. I want to know how you want me to live my life.

You seem to think that you're something if you pass basic training. You're really not. Millions before you and millions will likely follow you.

I think I can ammount to something. I don't think I'm some fucking hero. I have the urge to make a difference in a on-going conflict that doesn't make sense to me.

Talk to some Korean and WWII veterans, some of the more sane Nam veterans, and get a better understanding of how it changes you.

I used to believe in the good fight for Iraqi freedom. But I would never compare it to WW2. Now, I'm not sure what's going to happen in Iraq. But I want to make a fucking difference.

Joining the military for pride or to find a purpose is perhaps the worst one of all, since the Army can use the grunt who says "I want to kill people". First, the military tears down your pride. Once your pride is torn down, you will have to conform to a completely different life than you know now, and you think your life is dull and dreary now? Try freezing your ass off on a 0000-0400 aft watch, and all you do is stand there and...watch. Sentry duty is, compared to many other kinds of duty, rather eventful and a blessing. You could be designated as the Major's personal asslicker. You really don't know what job you will be given, and if you are seemingly this aimless, then that doesn't look too good for your prospects.

Pride? Where did I say it was pride? The desire to make a difference in a world-gone-made makes one proud?

Did you have the same outlook on life back in earlier grades, that you would graduate high school to prove yourself worth something?

No. I didn't think my time in school would prove anything other than I did it.

You're not selling me with "at least I'll be worth something if I'm a meat shield", when the likelihood of that scenario is remote, and that is your best outlook on life. Career Choice: Bullet Sponge

What? I said if that is the price I'll have to pay to make a difference, then I'll pay it. I never said I wanted to. I don't want to die, I just value life differently than you do (my own). If I'm in a situation where some guy with kids back home waiting for him to put some money on the table, and me, young and stupid, has to die, I'll take the bullet. How is that related to a bullet sponge? Because I think someone's life is more valuable than mine? I'm no fucking suicide bomber, and want to live to the next day just like anyone here. I'm not joining the military to become a human shield. If I didn't think my buddy's life was worth something, I'd be a fucking merc.

And now they're dying to break mommy's heart, and also bringing in a crappy attitude that gets other troops killed, those who enlisted with a reason.

A desire to make a difference isn't a reason huh? Well I'm glad there are people who think otherwise out there.

What did it for you, "An Army of One"?

Gave me a sense of purpose. Not as in "I belong" but as in "I was there, and did something." No fucking different than anyone who joins up to serve their country, or fight for freedom.

 

[Sander]

Pride? Where did I say it was pride? The desire to make a difference in a world-gone-made makes one proud?

No, but you're saying, and I quote, "I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm worth something. If that means taking a bullet for a friend with a wife and kids back home praying everyday that he gets back safe and sound, all limbs attached, than that's what it means. " does. You're trying to prove to yourself that your worth something, if that's not pride, then what is?
You're trying to justify your enlisting the army by saying "I want to make a difference", if you think that that's anything but

What? I said if that is the price I'll have to pay to make a difference, then I'll pay it. I never said I wanted to. I don't want to die, I just value life differently than you do (my own). If I'm in a situation where some guy with kids back home waiting for him to put some money on the table, and me, young and stupid, has to die, I'll take the bullet. How is that related to a bullet sponge? Because I think someone's life is more valuable than mine? I'm no fucking suicide bomber, and want to live to the next day just like anyone here. I'm not joining the military to become a human shield. If I didn't think my buddy's life was worth something, I'd be a fucking merc.

You're acting like a bullet sponge because you *want* to take a bullet to prove your own self-worth ("If [proving that I'm worth something] means taking a bullet for a friend with a wife and kids".) I'd sooner go see a shrink if your sense of self-worth is low enough to want to go to Iraq and take a bullet for someone else.
Oh yes, I know, 'If put in the situation". Bullshit. So far it's the only reason you've given to go to Iraq other than "I want to make a difference", which can be achieved in a million different ways. You're justifying going to a warzone and significantly increasing the risk of getting killed (whether it's in saving a buddy's life or not) by saying 'Self-worth!'

A desire to make a difference isn't a reason huh? Well I'm glad there are people who think otherwise out there.

It isn't if you have no clue as to how or what you're going to be doing. There are millions of different and less dangerous ways to make a difference that don't involve going to Iraq.

Gave me a sense of purpose. Not as in "I belong" but as in "I was there, and did something." No fucking different than anyone who joins up to serve their country, or fight for freedom.

Again, you're saying that you want to go their because it gives *you* a purpose.

Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Iraq, just that your reasons are wrong.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Iraq, just that your reasons are wrong.

I'm not saying anyone's reasons are right or wrong, I'm not saying that because I view it as something I have to do for myself, makes all of you wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right. What I'm trying to say is, when asked about my reasons, I gave them, and I have to find out my meaning for myself.

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with a sense of purpose. Did I make a difference here? If yes, then I'm not proud, then I know. If no, again, no pride, but I know. I enjoy the laid back life I have now. But I'm yearning for a change. Perhaps you and Rosh, and everyone else is right. I might just end up being a statistic. But if I can make a significant difference in someone's life, it's all that matters to me.

Like I said before in another topic, I want to help build schools, pave roads, and toss out food and water to the needy, but I don't want to do it without my trusty rifle, and a few good marines. I don't know where you're getting that my reasons are flawed. I'm not trying to take over the world, or contribute to killing, I just want to help and do something. Community service doesn't cut it for me anymore.

I can't explain my urges. Mock me, ridicule me, you only make yourselves look worse in my eyes. This is not about politics, or right and wrong, it's about doing something others don't want to do for the better of everyone else. You can't seem to understand that, and I can't seem to understand why you can't. You're not going to change the life I want to live. I don't desire death. I have an attidude: "we're all going to die someday, might as well do something about it." You would do things differently than I. We're only human.

 

[welsh]

@Eyemaster- Yes, I do have to finish that. But first I have to finish what I am currently working on. Besides, that story is nearly over, and I am not crazy about the ending.

@Pale Horse-

Yeah, I am pissed off. Because I see a lot of waste. And a lot of folks just like you perfectly willing to waste your life.

Seriously, is the best thing you can do going to a war that you don't really support so that you can either
(1) Get killed for someone whose life you think is more meaningful (And lets leave besides all the pricks that profit from your death)
or
(2) Kill some dude that you've never met.

Your life has meaning because you either kill or get killed. Great.

You do realize that you can have a more meaningful life by perhaps making a constructive difference? Like, try being a teacher, or a doctor, or an engineer? You could build something meaningful, you could help people make a better life.

There are millions of people who could be helped if you want to find personal meaning.

Jesus, Pale, find a girl, fall in love, get married and have kids- it will be more meaningful than going to Iraq and killing someone and carrying the stain of that on your life until you die.

Leave the gun at home. You don't need the marines. You've got your life. Don't fucking waste it.

Don't you get it. Can't you understand why this sucks so much.

It's you man.
You're not thinking, and because you're not, you're going to waste your life or cause yourself some real damage.

And worse, you look forward to it.
You've got a martyr complex.

Dude, get off the cross and try to live a meaningful life. That's where you find meaning. Not by throwing in the towel and joining the military.

Yeah, its' a big adventure. War has always been a draw as an adventure and a spectacle. Millions of kids just like you have gone to war for the adventure, for the pursuit of honor, for the sense of purpose- and many if not most have come back less for it.

You're not thinking, you're acting. And that's stupid. Think about it.

Trust me, life is difficult- it's a sufficient challenge all its own. But if you try to live a decent life you'll get your meaning.

 

[Sander]

I'm not saying anyone's reasons are right or wrong, I'm not saying that because I view it as something I have to do for myself, makes all of you wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right. What I'm trying to say is, when asked about my reasons, I gave them, and I have to find out my meaning for myself.

It has nothing to do with pride. It has to do with a sense of purpose. Did I make a difference here? If yes, then I'm not proud, then I know. If no, again, no pride, but I know. I enjoy the laid back life I have now.

This is bullshit reasoning. Searching for self-worth, giving your life meaning and whatever is only pride. Why? Because it revolves around *yourself*. Your self-worth, your meaning, your life. *You* want to give up your life, because you think it will give meaning to it.
It would be vastly different if you want to go Iraq to help the people there, or to become a doctor to save people. But you're not. You're going to go to Iraq to give your own life some meaning, because that's what you've been talking about. Pft.
The fact that you think the possibility of saving the life of someone who has a wife and children is more meaningful than having kids for yourself says enough. It says that you want to sacrifice yourself, as welsh said, martyr syndrome.

 

[Paladin Solo]

This is bullshit reasoning.

Why? Because you think differently?

Searching for self-worth, giving your life meaning and whatever is only pride. Why? Because it revolves around *yourself*. Your self-worth, your meaning, your life. *You* want to give up your life, because you think it will give meaning to it.

Give up my life? I said I want to live. But I'll make myself into what life I see fit. Sacrifices happen, it's history, it's real.

It would be vastly different if you want to go Iraq to help the people there

- Previous post - "I want to help build schools, pave roads, and toss out food and water to the needy, but I don't want to do it without my trusty rifle, and a few good marines."

But you're not. You're going to go to Iraq to give your own life some meaning, because that's what you've been talking about. Pft.

I'm joining the military to give myself meaning (a purpose in life, as in my role in life is to serve and protect, my role in life is to teach, my role in life is to build computers, etc...). I'm going to Iraq to try and help (make a difference).

The fact that you think the possibility of saving the life of someone who has a wife and children is more meaningful than having kids for yourself says enough. It says that you want to sacrifice yourself, as welsh said, martyr syndrome.

If I had a wife and kids, I wouldn't sign up for the military. (Personal preference, not opinion). And because I recognize what it's like to live apart from a father, I would hate to know what it's like to know he's dead and isn't coming back. That makes me a martyr? I'm not trying to be a hero, I'm not trying to have someone write a book about me, I'm trying to do what I think would be right in that situation.

Edit:

Let me put it this way Sander...

Pre-Iraq: I had a huge sense of pride in my country, especially after 9/11 and our success in Afghanistan. I was intent on joining for the duty to serve, and the sense of pride and honor.

During-Iraq: As the storm got worse, I began to doubt the merits of my governments intentions there. I'm thinking a year or two ago, I began to feel (some would say realize) that the war was for oil. I began to not want to join the military for a cause I did not want to fight for (oil) even though I know we as a people need it. It's our crack.

Now: Seeing pictures of dead, wounded, and the needy, filled me up with mixxed emotions. I did not expect much from life, but knew this shit shouldn't happen. I guess I was oblivious to what war does to people before I graduated (these feelings began to occur recently). Now, lost and confused, I feel like I need to do with my life for the better of the whole (as good, or as bad as that sounds to some of you). I always had the intentions of joining the military, with a strong military background. The shitstorm known as Iraq, however, set me back a year, and redifined my intentions.

 

[Sander]

Why? Because you think differently?

No, because the reasoning in itself is flawed. How would telling yourself that there's a difference between wanting a sense of purpose and pride make it not pride? Oh, I know, because you said so.
That's why your reasoning is flawed.

Give up my life? I said I want to live. But I'll make myself into what life I see fit. Sacrifices happen, it's history, it's real.

I seem to recall the word 'martyr'. Learn its meaning.

- Previous post - "I want to help build schools, pave roads, and toss out food and water to the needy, but I don't want to do it without my trusty rifle, and a few good marines."

Same post: "I have to find out my meaning for myself".

I'm joining the military to give myself meaning (a purpose in life, as in my role in life is to serve and protect, my role in life is to teach, my role in life is to build computers, etc...). I'm going to Iraq to try and help (make a difference).

*sigh* Same difference. Joining the military for your own pride (to give yourself purpose, hah) means that you're going to go into an armed conflict. Because that's what the military does, you have to be prepared and ready for it. Adding the ad hoc reason of 'But I go to Iraq to help!' isn't going to change that joining the military means getting into an armed conflict.
See, what you keep saying is 'purpose' 'meaning' and whatever, which is rather ridiculous. Join the military because that's what you want to do in life, because you feel the military is where you belong. Not to give you purpose in life, because that means you feel you don't *have* a purpose. Which is indicative of very low feeling of self-worth.

If I had a wife and kids, I wouldn't sign up for the military. (Personal preference, not opinion). And because I recognize what it's like to live apart from a father, I would hate to know what it's like to know he's dead and isn't coming back. That makes me a martyr? I'm not trying to be a hero, I'm not trying to have someone write a book about me, I'm trying to do what I think would be right in that situation.

Then why in god's name did you bring it up in your justifying being in the military?
Simple: because you feel that sacrificing your life would be important and would give your life meaning (as you yourself claimed). And yes, that means you want to be a martyr.
What you would do in such a situation is completely seperate from what you want to do with your life. The mere fact that you even brought it up shows that that's on your mind, and that's what you may want to do.

Edit:

Let me put it this way Sander...

Pre-Iraq: I had a huge sense of pride in my country, especially after 9/11 and our success in Afghanistan. I was intent on joining for the duty to serve, and the sense of pride and honor.

During-Iraq: As the storm got worse, I began to doubt the merits of my governments intentions there. I'm thinking a year or two ago, I began to feel (some would say realize) that the war was for oil. I began to not want to join the military for a cause I did not want to fight for (oil) even though I know we as a people need it. It's our crack.

Now: Seeing pictures of dead, wounded, and the needy, filled me up with mixxed emotions. I did not expect much from life, but knew this shit shouldn't happen. I guess I was oblivious to what war does to people before I graduated (these feelings began to occur recently). Now, lost and confused, I feel like I need to do with my life for the better of the whole (as good, or as bad as that sounds to some of you). I always had the intentions of joining the military, with a strong military background. The shitstorm known as Iraq, however, set me back a year, and redifined my intentions.

Lost and confused. Hah. The ultimate teenage drama. "I don't know what to do with my life." How goth.
Well, guess what, most everyone deals with that at some point, and joining the military is not in any way going to change that.

 

[Paladin Solo]

No, because the reasoning in itself is flawed. How would telling yourself that there's a difference between wanting a sense of purpose and pride make it not pride? Oh, I know, because you said so.

Because it's not about pride. I'm not going to go around feeling self-important if I find my purpose, I'm going to go around feeling AT EASE.

Same post: "I have to find out my meaning for myself".

And around and round we go.

*sigh* Same difference.

No. I can make a difference without knowing my purpose.

Adding the ad hoc reason of 'But I go to Iraq to help!' isn't going to change that joining the military means getting into an armed conflict.

Did I say it was?

Which is indicative of very low feeling of self-worth.

Or I'm at the point in life where I say "why the fuck not?" Seriously. One year of college and getting drunk every weekend didn't help me find anything other than the fact that I was lazy.

Then why in god's name did you bring it up in your justifying being in the military?

When did I justify family with military?

Simple: because you feel that sacrificing your life would be important and would give your life meaning (as you yourself claimed). And yes, that means you want to be a martyr.

Desire to be a martyr, and the the acceptance of it possibly happening are completely two different things.

Lost and confused. Hah. The ultimate teenage drama. "I don't know what to do with my life." How goth.
Well, guess what, most everyone deals with that at some point, and joining the military is not in any way going to change that.

Fuck, I know everyone deals with it, and I could care less what you want me to do with my life. I'm going to do with it as I please. I recall sometime back an argument about drugs. Someone was saying they were bad and people shouldn't smoke them. I THINK it was you, Sander that asked "why?" It's my life man. I'm not going to try and get anyone killed just as much as the next guy. I'm not fucking stupid. I'm not going to jump a goddamned grenade when pushing others away will do just fine. The bullet scenario was in general terms. Not I'm going to jump in front of the path of a bullet without blindly thinking about it. I have a strong sense of comradrery with my family and friends. I'm sure military life will make it stronger. If that makes me a fucking martyr, then so be it.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I'm going to Iraq to try and help (make a difference).

Try and help whom? The Iraqis? You do realize that the US Army is an invading force which conquered the soil of a sovereign country? That every single Iraqi citizen will hate your guts for the sole reason that you wear the uniform of an American soldier? That if worst comes to worst and you get incapacitated and cut off from your unit, the people you are supposedly helping will take great pleasure in finishing you off, dismembering your corpse, setting your uniform on fire and shouting "Death to America! Allah is great!"? That your "help" will largely amount to gunning down insurgents and innocent kids who get caught in the crossfire? That the only ones who will benefit from your presence in Iraq are war profiteers like Dick Cheney?

You want to help the world? Join the Red Cross, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, RSPCA or a similar organization. There are many groups and organizations which make a positive difference, but the US military is *not* one of them. If you wish to be a US soldier, go ahead and enlist, but please don't purport to be a world-improving idealist because of it. The purpose of the US military is to enforce American interests abroad, which presently includes sowing death and chaos in the Middle East. There is nothing altruistic or constructive about American entanglements in Iraq, and you would do well to realize that before you willingly become another insignificant and expendable cog in the your country's war machine.

 

[welsh]

Pale Horse-

Or I'm at the point in life where I say "why the fuck not?" Seriously. One year of college and getting drunk every weekend didn't help me find anything other than the fact that I was lazy

Dude, don't you get it. You just admitted what your problem is- you're fucking lazy.

No one forced you to spend a year in college getting drunk and stupid. No one forces you to be lazy.

You choose to be lazy.
You choose not to the think,
And you choose to make compromises.
you choose to be dumb ass.

This is the point.

This is going to get you killed.
And someone is going to profit from that.

Perhaps you are doing this because you come from a military family. I know a lot of military families were the kid feels compelled to follow in their parents footsteps. And if that's what you want to do as your career, go for it.

But open your eyes man.

As General Smedley D. Butler , US Marine said-

"I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purifly Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested... . Looking back on it, I feel I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents."

No offense but Smedley was a hell of a lot smarter than you.

And this is what you want to dedicate your life, to risk your life, for?

You're so damn lazy you're going to get yourself killed.

ANd dude, if you want to say, "Yeah I want to be a marine, serve the US and kick some ass." Well, fine.

Because if you go there thinking you are doing something moral, and you find yourself gunning down some folks on rather dubious cause, and then you wonder WTF have I become, and you realize you don't like what you've become.... well dude you have no one else to blame but yourself.

That's what you signed up.

Think about it.

You want to help the world? Join the Red Cross, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, RSPCA or a similar organization. There are many groups and organizations which make a positive difference, but the US military is *not* one of them. If you wish to be a US soldier, go ahead and enlist, but please don't purport to be a world-improving idealist because of it. The purpose of the US military is to enforce American interests abroad, which presently includes sowing death and chaos in the Middle East. There is nothing altruistic or constructive about American entanglements in Iraq, and you would do well to realize that before you willingly become another insignificant and expendable cog in the your country's war machine.

Bingo.

Seriously, if you want to have a meaningful life and make a moral contribution that helps people, finish college, get a worthwhile skill, join the peace corps and help some poor bastards that really need it.

If you don't know what you want to do, take some time and figure yourself out.

If you need some suggestions-
Go to Dafur and help those poor bastards,
Go to Africa and work an AIDS word, or a malaria ward.
Try to work in a refugee camp.
Become an environmentalist
Campaign for social rights
Join Americorp and help some people in your own country.

The world is full of suffering. I am sure you'll have no real problem finding someing to make your life more meaningful.

Dude, find a girl, fall in love, get married, be a good father, raise decent kids and live a good life. Then you'll have a meaningful existence.

And you won't have to kill anyone in the process. You might miss out on boot camp, the shaved head, the funny clothing, the M-16 drills, driving around on an armored carrier. You might miss out that opportunity of wondering why you're just a grunt and that asshole is an officer, especially as that asshole might get you killed.

But you will also not have to see officers kill innocent people,
Or seeing your buddies wipe out people,
you won't see dogs eating bodies,
you won't be shot at by kids,
You'll miss out of seeing the consequences of a cluster bomb,
or how a body looks after a tank has rolled over it.
You might not have to hear people, perhaps your friends, screaming in pain.
You might miss on wondering if today you're going to step on a landmine and have your foot blown off,
You won't get the chance to worry if the fact that your hand keeps shaking means that you're losing it,
You won't be freezing your ass off at night wondering, what the fuck was I thinking to volunteer for this crap?

Your choice.
Don't be lazy. Think about it.

One of the guys I went to high school with went to Lebanon and got to cut a person in half with an M-60, and got to dig his buddies out of a blown up airport. You probably weren't even born back then. You probably don't even know about what happened there. And he's still a mental fuck up for that experience.
You want that too?

Come on Pale Horse. Think about it.

Really, give up this alturistic BS. You're smart enough to know better.

 

[Elissar]

That every single Iraqi citizen will hate your guts for the sole reason that you wear the uniform of an American soldier?

Not true, i know from experiance working with Iraqi's. Please explain to me how you came by the nugget of wisdom that 'all iraqi's hate americans'.

That if worst comes to worst and you get incapacitated and cut off from your unit, the people you are supposedly helping will take great pleasure in finishing you off, dismembering your corpse, setting your uniform on fire and shouting "Death to America! Allah is great!"?

You're thinking largely of insurgents here, not saying that no iraqi's would do such things, but a large number of them wouldnt.

That your "help" will largely amount to gunning down insurgents and innocent kids who get caught in the crossfire? That the only ones who will benefit from your presence in Iraq are war profiteers like Dick Cheney?

And the Militay providing healthcare for iraqi's injured by both the Coalition forces in iraq and by insurgents who are attacking more civilian, police and iraqi military targets than they are US instalations? The constant efforts at getting electricity back to all areas of Iraq, as well as water and communication infrastructure, most of which by the way Is under constant attack by insurgents for the sole purpose of demoralising Iraqi citizens. Do these things not help? The military is not the baby eating murder machine you seem to think Ratty, but then, you havent been there and seen the things that we do, so i cant really expect you to know them, especially when the media rarely reports the good being done, not good for rateings you know.

You want to help the world? Join the Red Cross, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, RSPCA or a similar organization.

Hippy

There are many groups and organizations which make a positive difference, but the US military is *not* one of them.

See the section of text above the part of this post where i called you a hippy.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Dude, don't you get it. You just admitted what your problem is- you're fucking lazy.

I found out nothing in that one year of college other than that fact. I sat around all day, either studying, playing video games, or eating. I'd take the periodic trip to the gym to keep fit, and in overal appeal to the opposite sex, but I just didn't like the way I was living.

No one forced you to spend a year in college getting drunk and stupid. No one forces you to be lazy.

Stupid? I got drunk because I could, but I didn't waste thousands of my dollars doing nothing but. I'm not that fucking dumb. I payed for an education, and I earned it.

You choose to be lazy.

My lifestyle made me lazy

You choose not to the think,

Yet I reconsidered joining the military because of Iraq, did a year of college instead, understand joining the military means putting my life at risk, understand I'm joining one of the most hated forces in the world, yet I can't think? I WANT to do this. I'm not arguing the validity of such actions. I don't want to conform to be a good fucking human being everyone wants me to be. I want to make mistakes so I can gain something from life. I don't want to fuck myself up, but that shit happens everyday to everyday, normal people all over the world.

you choose to be dumb ass.

Is it wrong to be human and do what you feel is right? I could choose not to join. Then, maybe after I get my college degree, get a good-paying job, raise a good family, watch my kids graduate, I can sit there and say "could've been worse?" Yeah. From what I've lived so far, I know life has some fucked up surprises in store. It's full of twisted irony. What if, and only if I'm lucky, I do raise a perfect family, and have a perfect life. What if I one day begin to wonder, "what if I joined?" There is no perfect decision for me to make here. So I'm going to go with my gut on this one. If it fails me, at least it will die with me then.

Perhaps you are doing this because you come from a military family. I know a lot of military families were the kid feels compelled to follow in their parents footsteps. And if that's what you want to do as your career, go for it.

I had a strong sense of pride in my background before Iraq, as I stated earlier. Now, that pride has almost withered away, but what's left of it only influences more me in this decision.

But open your eyes man.

I see a world where people want me to conform, or be brushed aside. What did you expect? A smile and a handshake?

No offense but Smedley was a hell of a lot smarter than you.

I acknowledge the evils of my country, but you don't go and quote me on it saying good fucking boy when you do to Smedley? We all have sins.

And this is what you want to dedicate your life, to risk your life, for?

Joining the military may end up being a mistake. But what if it doesn't? Are you going to go back and say "well you're the exception." At least it'll be my mistake if it ends up being such. But I have optimistic feelings, and perhaps that's my weakness.

You're so damn lazy you're going to get yourself killed.

Replace "lazy" with "stupid" and I might hold your thoughts to higher regards. It's all you've been trying to say this whole time, anyways.

well dude you have no one else to blame but yourself.

Who would I blame, even if I by some small chance WANTED to? I don't blame people for my actions.

Seriously, if you want to have a meaningful life and make a moral contribution that helps people, finish college, get a worthwhile skill, join the peace corps and help some poor bastards that really need it.

The Iraqis don't need help? We fucked up their world. We should be responsible for fixing it. I'm not in the position to make such decisions on a large scale. But maybe, just maybe, by some chance, I can make some difference. If I do, I'll be able to look back on my life when I get older and be at ease knowing I tried. Sure, there's a fucked up world right now known as Iraq. But maybe, I can make it a little better. If I can contribute some good to this world even in a place like Iraq, I'm going to try it.

If you don't know what you want to do, take some time and figure yourself out.

I did. I came up with the decision to do what I'm going to do now.

Go to Dafur and help those poor bastards,
Go to Africa and work an AIDS word, or a malaria ward.
Try to work in a refugee camp.

It's on my "to do" list. Plus, I wouldn't feel comfortable going to Iraq without some kind of military presence at my side. I'm not strictly joining the military because of Iraq, it's just something I want to do and experience whilst in the military. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't have watched so many action flics when I was younger where the good guys go marching in all bravado and save the day. How typical of me right?

Become an environmentalist

Yuck.

Campaign for social rights

I did that, once. It was pointless, though.

Join Americorp and help some people in your own country.

I do community service every year.

The world is full of suffering. I am sure you'll have no real problem finding someing to make your life more meaningful.

I've cooked meals for the homeless, I've helped put shelters together for stray pets, I even took part in the boring Earth Day rituals my old school holds from time to time. But I feel a need to try and do some good over there and get some experience in my life.

Dude, find a girl, fall in love, get married, be a good father, raise decent kids and live a good life. Then you'll have a meaningful existence.

Again, on my "to do" list.

Really, give up this alturistic BS. You're smart enough to know better.

Say I come back alive, but fucked up like a few of my friends and family. Say I uneasily speed through traffic on instinct because I've driven through IED alley. Say I break my future wife's arm when she tries to give me a massage. Say I become so paranoid that I think my own friends are plotting against me in a game of poker and then threaten them with death. Say my future kids become so scared of me sometimes because of a blank look of despair I always have.

But then, say I go there, and help rebuild some poor kid's torn up home. Say I give him enough food and water to stock up on for some time until his or dad get's their job(s) back to pay for their family on their own again. Say I help train a police force to guard their own people with vigilance. Say this boy one day grows up to become someone important. Say because of my actions, he is influenced to use his importance to make a bigger difference in the his country, or maybe even the world, and change it for the better.

Say I didn't go there, and missed "my place" in Iraq. Say that boy was somehow overlooked and instead, his family began to starve. Say his parents moved out of Iraq with a strong hatred now because they were somehow overlooked. Say he grows up to still be someone important, and uses his importance to preach hatred, and mistrust in this world. Say that I was the unkowing missing link to this fucked up picture.

You say fat chance, I say possible. I believe in fate and destiny. I guess that's another one of my many weaknesses. I'm willing to hand over the spotlight to someone more capable. I just want the chance. And since I don't know if I have begun a chain of events for the better just yet, I'll take every single opportunity to comes into my "stupid" brain.

 

[Sander]

Because it's not about pride. I'm not going to go around feeling self-important if I find my purpose, I'm going to go around feeling AT EASE.

Unless you already know that your purpose is the military, there is no reason whatsoever why joining the military would suddenly make you realise your purpose.
Of course, if you already know your purpose is being a military, why would you be searching for it?

No. I can make a difference without knowing my purpose.

Wait, what? Where did I say you couldn't? I said that there is essentially no difference between joining the military and going to Iraq for the military because you'll get into an armed either way.

Or I'm at the point in life where I say "why the fuck not?" Seriously. One year of college and getting drunk every weekend didn't help me find anything other than the fact that I was lazy.

So...you join the military because you don't have anything else to do and found out you were lazy. And please, god, don't say that your 'lifestyle' made you lazy, because it didn't. It was a conscious choice to live the way you did, and living the way you did meant you were acting lazy. You could easily have changed that by simply not being lazy.

When did I justify family with military?

Family, what? The subject was your willingness to die for someone else, not your family. And you used your willingness to die for someone else as a justification for joining the military.

Simple: because you feel that sacrificing your life would be important and would give your life meaning (as you yourself claimed). And yes, that means you want to be a martyr.

Desire to be a martyr, and the the acceptance of it possibly happening are completely two different things.

Fuck, I know everyone deals with it, and I could care less what you want me to do with my life. I'm going to do with it as I please. I recall sometime back an argument about drugs. Someone was saying they were bad and people shouldn't smoke them. I THINK it was you, Sander that asked "why?" It's my life man. I'm not going to try and get anyone killed just as much as the next guy. I'm not fucking stupid. I'm not going to jump a goddamned grenade when pushing others away will do just fine. The bullet scenario was in general terms. Not I'm going to jump in front of the path of a bullet without blindly thinking about it. I have a strong sense of comradrery with my family and friends. I'm sure military life will make it stronger. If that makes me a fucking martyr, then so be it.

It makes you a martyr-wannabe, which is pretty damned stupid because it means that you think your life is worth less than the life of another random man, no matter what you could do with it. Heh.

Also, you're really getting into a teenage drama mode here. ' could care less what you want me to do with my life. I'm going to do with it as I please.'
Oh noez, someone thought my reasoning for doing something was stupid, they're trying to control my life!
Give me a break, I didn't tell you, anywhere, how to live your life. All I did was question your reasoning. For all I care you become a burger-flipping faux-Goth with a knife-and-wrist obsession.

 

[welsh]

Pale, perhaps you are being a bit too Catholic about this? Sure maybe we carry the sins for the things we fail to do as well as the sins of the things we do.

But you don't have to be Mother Theresa either.

Honestly, the terrible misery that's in Iraq is not your fault. You didn't even have the chance to elect the asshole who started and fucked that war. You don't carry the world on your shoulders. Really.

And if all the public service you do hasn't helped you find meaning in your life, why do you think the marines will?

You don't find inner peace by looking outside of you, but by looking inside. By going to the marines, and going through some of the terrible stuff of war, you may be further removing yourself from that sense of "meaning" you may looking.

But by going in the marines you are more likely to make the situation worse than better. With all due respect to the marines and the other armed services, The marines are a combat force, not a rebuilding force. There are those that do rebuilding and civil work in Iraq and you could join those and still miss out on getting to shoot someone.

You go off on how you want to learn from your mistakes and experiences. But while its smart to learn from your mistakes, its much smarter to learn from the mistakes of others and thereby avoid them.

Because in life there are some mistakes that you don't come back from. There are some mistakes that don't get healed, and leaved you scarred for life. And those scars can make you insensitive and make you suffer.

It's unnecessary.

Being lazy is stupid. You're problem seems to be that you lack internal motivation and you seem to think the marines will give that to you. Sure the marines might give you a new code on which to live your life, they may even give you a new purpose. But its' their code, and their purpose that you serve.

Why not live a meaningful life based on what you think is purposeful? Why not make your code based on your ideals and your beliefs?

That takes work too.
The marines might offer you what you look for, but get you killed before you find it.

Or you could go and find it for yourself and live to make something meaningful of your life.