Ukraine election fraud

quietfanatic

Ancient One
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4031981.stm

Tens of thousands of Ukrainians have thronged major cities, protesting at an election result they consider flawed.

Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko told supporters to stage a civil disobedience campaign. The cities of Kiev and Lviv refused to recognise the official victory for Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.

While Russia accepted the result, a US observer alleged "concerted and forceful" fraud, and the EU called on Ukraine to review Sunday's election.

"We are very concerned about the news we have had about the outcome," said Dutch Foreign Minister Bernard Bot, representing the EU.

He said all 25 EU member states would be calling in Ukrainian ambassadors "to convey our message of serious concern".

Moscow, which backed Prime Minister Yanukovych, recognised the election result.

"I have congratulated Viktor Yanukovych for his victory," said President Vladimir Putin's personal envoy, Boris Gryzlov.

Observers for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said Sunday's run-off vote fell far short of European democratic norms.

Mr Yushchenko, seen as the pro-Western candidate, told thousands of people who braved sub-zero temperatures in the capital, Kiev, not to leave the rally "until victory".

"We are launching an organised movement of civil resistance," he said, denouncing what he called the "total falsification" of the vote which followed days of acrimonious wrangling over the results of the first round.

'Media bias'

Kiev city council refused to recognise the results, and urged parliament to follow suit. Thousands of people turned onto the streets in the western city of Lviv, where the city council said it would only take orders from Mr Yushchenko.

ELECTION RIVALS

Viktor Yanukovych:
Aged 54
Imprisoned twice in his youth
Former governor of industrial Donetsk region
Raised pensions and public sector pay before election
Would make Russian second official language and allow dual citizenship

Viktor Yushchenko:
Aged 50
An economist and former central banker
Has an American wife
Promises to fight corruption, create five million jobs and pursue free market reforms
Would seek deeper relations with Europe and the West


The central electoral commission said with more than 99% of the vote counted, Mr Yanukovych had 49.4% while Mr Yushchenko had 46.7%. But the opposition says it has recorded many thousands of irregularities - including very high turnouts in government strongholds. Mr Yanukovych was backed by incumbent President Leonid Kuchma. Exit polls earlier suggested that Mr Yushchenko had been on course for victory with a lead of at least six percentage points.

"The second round did not meet a considerable number of [international] commitments for democratic elections," said Bruce George, head of the OSCE mission in Kiev.

The OSCE also reported serious irregularities in the first round.

"The abuse of state resources in favour of the prime minister continued, as well as an overwhelming media bias in his favour," Mr George said.

The group said Sunday's violations also included intimidation of observers and voters. The authorities are investigating the killing of a policeman who was guarding ballot papers in a village in central Ukraine. The motive for the killing is not known.

Mr Yushchenko's supporters say they do not believe the official turnout figure of 96% in eastern Ukraine.

"I believe in my victory but the government... has staged total fraud in the elections in the [eastern] Donetsk and Lugansk regions," Mr Yushchenko said.

Kiev was on high alert, with extra police and soldiers on the streets, and riot vehicles outside the central electoral commission.

During the campaign, Mr Yushchenko, prime minister between 1999 and 2001, claimed to have been the victim of intimidation and dirty tricks, including an alleged poisoning attempt.

His critics portray him as an American puppet who will do anything to gain power, including inciting civil unrest.

This is looking increasingly like a nasty remnant of the Cold War. As Putin might give even more support to the pro-Moscow government. I only hope that there is no bloodshed. It might lead to border areas becoming part of Russia. But at least that should reduce tensions in the long term.

Does anyone now much about the situation in the Ukraine?
 
Great timing Quite Fanatic. Just as you made this thread Commissar Lauren mentioned that some bad stuff was going on in Ukraine...

Your damn right this is a cold-war era thing. Two candidates on supporting the west and the other Russia. Massive electoral fraud and political violence. Besides the fact that this is bad I wonder how the UN and Putin will respond?

Im sure the UN will want to send delegates to try and recount the vote...probably not military intervention though. Russia on the other hand...now is the perfect opportunity to seize another area...though I believe it wouldnt be in Putin's best interest, just seeing his political reaction to it will really set a mark on how he thinks Russia fits in place with the rest of Eastern Europe and the what used to be parts of Russia...

Please dont start the "Eastern Europe" argument again...

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
I'm pretty worried with this thing going on, especially if it's happening in a country neighbouring mine.

Quietfanatic said:
This is looking increasingly like a nasty remnant of the Cold War. As Putin might give even more support to the pro-Moscow government. I only hope that there is no bloodshed. It might lead to border areas becoming part of Russia. But at least that should reduce tensions in the long term.

Frauding elections that had a 70+ percent frequency won't lead to reducing tensions, or to a bad Cold War aftertaste. As for the bloodshed, wake up. It's already happening.
Yanukovich, the former prime minister and Putin's bitch, used compeltely inadmissible "persuasion" methods before and during the presidential campaign. Threatening to throw out women giving birth and terminally ill patients out of hospitals if they didn't vote for them is one of those. Also, don't forget what marvels you can get people to do with misinformation and propaganda. Hell, you can even make most of a country's populace to believe in an astronomically bullshitty reason to invade another country!

Hired brainwashed Donbas workers, beatings and terror didn't work, however. The government had to falsify the election results.
In case anyone noticed, the country is in the verge of a full-scale civil war. Let me remind you folks that it's an ex-Soviet republic which always was of strategic importance, economically and military-wise.
Now, imagine a civil war in a country that probably has nuclear weapons, which aren't officialy controlled nor quite frankly known of by weapon inspectors.

The fact Juszczenko (Yushchenko), the opposition leader, who got the most votes declared himself president and read out his presidential promise in the parlament doesn't mean the deal is over.

I've heard rumours the army is advancing to Kiev with heavy equipment.
 
I personally can't believe Javier Solana hasn't made an official statement on this yet. This is, once again, a conflict happening in the EU's back yard, and yet again the EU seems to take little or no steps at all to help stabilise the matter.

It's a bad thing to wait for the UN or other organisations, since we all know how slow those work. This is happening at the borders of the Union, and letting Putin call the shots by himself doesn't seem like the smartest thing to do.

I can't believe something like this is happening again.
 
Jebus said:
I personally can't believe Javier Solana hasn't made an official statement on this yet.

I believe he has. He categorized the election conditions as "unadmissible and undemocratic"

Heard his voice on the radio.

It's a bad thing to wait for the UN or other organisations, since we all know how slow those work.

No.

Rushing things acting on impartial proof is not the way to go. Sounds like a Dubyah-plan.

Proceeding through those precise organizations is the only way to give any kind of credibility and legitimacy to the decision made and not fuel further tensions between parties, which could result in huge trade embargos ( which will fuck up the population that had nothing to do with it) or a war.
 
Jebus said:
I personally can't believe Javier Solana hasn't made an official statement on this yet. This is, once again, a conflict happening in the EU's back yard, and yet again the EU seems to take little or no steps at all to help stabilise the matter.

Putin first complimented the regime canditate for "winning", then here in Portugal said no one should give lessons to Ukraine, commenting on the EU position of showing great worry for the democratic process beeing rigged. Yeah right...

I`m following this very closely, not only since it seems i`m going to work in an instute that deals with EU, particularly on the Internacional Relations angle, therefore on the critical and dangerous issue of east-west relations, but mainly because there are 120000 ukrainians living in my country, and many tens of thousand russians.

The opposition is trying the Serbian/Georgean tactics to remove from power the friends of Kushma, let´s see if it works, the special forces and the army are already in the streets, waiting for orders, i think this time Putin will force a more suitable resolution, for his own interests, than those he got in Serbia and Georgia.

Hope things go well, but i`m quite worried.
 
I've been following since they started. Ugly stuff. It seems that there is little that can go well for ex-Soviet countries, although the fact that Kiev and Lviv support Yukashenko is interesting. I think it'll eventually result in Yukasenko becoming the new president, if not through peaceful means, then through revolution. Popular support for him and discontent over the elections is huge. Although it might then result in a split, since, IIRC, the East largely voted for Yanukovich.

Latest news says that the crowd is circling the president's HQ:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4036867.stm
 
Yushchenko/Juszczenko. Lukashenko/Łukaszenko is Belarus' Dictator.

Geez, did anybody read my post?
 
Yushchenko/Juszczenko. Lukashenko/Łukaszenko is Belarus' Dictator.

Geez, did anybody read my post?
Yes, obviously. I just suck at names I'm not familiar with. Always get them mixed up.

About that: how well-founded are those rumours about army marching on Kiev?
 
A family friend has numerous contacts in Ukraine, as he's been traveling there for years and hires many workers fo his construction business there. Before anyone comes up with a crappy line, he does not exploit people. Not much job opportunities in Ukraine, he does them a favour by obtaining a fair and very well-paid job (by Ukranian standards) in Poland.

Anyhow, he has great contacts with those people and their families, and obviously cares enough to check on them.

He confirmed the rumor that the army was making pretty big movements before and during the campaign. Wether it's to quell down a rebellion or to "provide safety" is unknown.

A well known Warsaw radio announced it.
 
I seem to recall Ukraine returning all their nuclear material after the Soviet collapse. Which is not saying that I'm much happier with Russia having it, mind you, but I'm not just making this up, am I?
 
I realize I could've (and did in fact) just looked it up, but asking the question served my purpose of addressing another aspect of a possible Ukrainian civil war.

Just FYI :D
 
Well people marched to the Presidential palace, that was guarded by the riot police in full gear. The tension was high, when suddently one of the top opposition staff members shows up saying she had talked to Kushma and he had accepted to receive the opposition leaders in the morning and pronounce Yushenko the real winner of the elections.

Sounded to easy to be true, let`s see what the morning brings.
 
I pray tomorrow doesnt open with a chain of events that lead to something that will be looked on as the cause of WW3...

The real info we need is on whether the legitimate sources have made a decision and have tried to implement it and whether the illegitimate sources are going to riot or not and whether its organized enough to change things...

(bites nails),
The Vault Dweller
 
Wooz said:
Frauding elections that had a 70+ percent frequency won't lead to reducing tensions, or to a bad Cold War aftertaste. As for the bloodshed, wake up.

I didn't say that. (Damn my poor writing) Ukraine has valuable resources and strategic position, but Russia will not be able to interfere if the eastern, Orthodox region is taken into Russia. In the long term, this would leave a smaller, new Ukraine with a more democratic government closer to the West and the EU. Although you are not supposed to do that these days, I think that it could solve the problem.

It reminds me of the Cold War because the West is wholly supporting Yushchenko, while Russia supports Yanukovych. The Catholic majority does not like Russian interference, and prefer self-determination. The more Russia supports one side, the more the West will support the other.

If the riot police start hosing down demonstrators in -10 degrees centigrade temperatures, this will surely escalate into a dangerous riot and people may start shooting. If the army starts an assault, there will be an international crisis. That is what I call bloodshed.

I don't know that much about Ukraine, but if the army splits and no one negotiates, civil war will start. We can only hope that cooller heads prevail.
 
I know you didn't.

I was under the impression that you portrayed the situation a bit lightly, hence the somewhat spicy reply.

AFP said:
Ukraine opposition calls for new poll as EU warns Kiev (24/11/2004)


KIEV (AFP) Ukraine's opposition called for a new round of presidential elections to resolve the political crisis gripping the nation, as European leaders, alleging fraud, warned of "consequences" if the poll was not reviewed.

As Ukrainians waited for the central election commission to announce final results of Sunday's run-off ballot, Viktor Yushchenko said the opposition was ready to contest a fresh vote.

"We are ready again to hold a second round if there is no outside pressure," he told tens of thousands of demonstrators in central Kiev joining a third day of mass street protests.

The opposition charges that the government helped rig the poll in favour of pro-Russia Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich and to rob Yushchenko, who is seen as pro-Western and willing to ally Ukraine with the European Union and NATO.

The European Union stepped up criticism of a poll marred by what it called "massive fraud," urging Ukraine to delay the final election results pending a review.

The Dutch EU presidency and President Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland both said they were sending special envoys to Ukraine in view of the situation.

By latest counts at 1100 GMT Wednesday, Yanukovich won 49.54 percent of the vote compared to 46.66 percent for Yushchenko, a spokeswoman for the election commission told AFP.

With security forces guarding the presidency, President Leonid Kuchma, who had hand-picked Yanukovich as his successor, said he had ruled out the use of force.

"As acting president, I categorically reject the use of any kind of force," Interfax quoted him as telling a government meeting.

In a day of fast-moving developments, Yushchenko accused the government of planning to quell the protests by force and urged law enforcement agencies to exercise restraint and "prevent a tragedy."

The standoff looked set to continue, with a spokesman for Yushchenko saying there could be no negotiations unless authorities "recognise that the results of the vote were falsified."

"I want to tell you that we will not hold negotiations with Yanukovich and the people who surround him," said Mykola Tomenko, a close aide.

Most independent exit polls Sunday gave victory to Yushchenko, but some of those commissioned by Yanukovich's team showed the premier as the winner.

The premier was quoted by ITAR-TASS as telling a cabinet meeting he was "a law-abiding man" who would recognise defeat "only on the basis of a legitimate ruling" from the election commission.

Ukrainian Defence Minister Olexander Kuzmuk urged the army to "remain calm, act in a measured way and fulfill your constitutional duty in keeping with the law."

He insisted the vote was "in conformity with the law" and denied tanks and troops were being moved into position in the capital Kiev.

European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso warned of "consequences" for the bloc's relations with Ukraine because of the impasse, now overshadowing a summit Thursday with Russia in The Hague.

"We regret that the Ukrainian authorities have not taken the opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to democracy," he said.

"There will be consequences, if there is not a serious, objective review," he added, declining to be more specific.

The crisis has put Russia at loggerheads with Europe and the United States as Moscow tries to keep control over the most populous of the former Soviet Union's republics after Russia.

NATO chief Jaap de Hoop Scheffer summoned the Ukrainian ambassador to voice the alliance's "disappointment and deep concern over the current events," and called for all disputes related to the poll results "to be fully examined."

In Washington the State Department took the unusual move of calling in the Russian ambassador for an interview to express US concerns over the Ukrainian vote.

In the face of mass protests and international reaction, even Yanukovich's main international backer, Russian President Vladimir Putin, has backtracked after initially recognising his win.

The opposition sees this as perhaps its best chance in a generation to pull the nation of 48 million people out of Russia's grasp.

The vote has polarized the country into clearly defined Ukrainian-speaking western regions supporting Yushchenko and eastern Russian-speaking districts which back the prime minister.

The graphic divide has prompted some politicians to warn that Ukraine might split in two, with more than 150 Ukrainian diplomats posted around the world recognising Yushchenko as the new president.

Yushchenko declared himself president on Tuesday in a symbolic ceremony in parliament attended only by his supporters, a move Kuchma branded a "political farce."

Pope John Paul II told Ukrainian pilgrims he was praying for them.

"I assure you and all the Ukrainian people that I am praying particularly for your very dear country in recent days," the radio quoted the 84-year-old Polish-born pope as saying in the Vatican.


It seems the situation has stabilized a bit, as yesterday the Western border was closed, the Eastern one was open and reported "considerable influx", and the offcial UN headquarters in Ukraine was in an emergency status which happens only in war-time or in massive riots.

With a bit of luck, I hope it'll work out without an international conflict.
 
The electoral committee has officially pronounced the government candidate the winner, and people continue to move to the rally outside the Presidential palace. The internacional TV stations are reporting attempts to mediation by the Dutch and the Polish, while the german government has started to make tough statements against the elections and calling the frauds unacceptable.

A stand off, so it seems for the Ukrainian and european public opinion and officials.

But there`s a problem with this picture:

-Kushma reassured everyone that there won`t be an intervenction by the army and the special forces, yet his people already arranged for the trains and buses destined to bring the miners from the east, wich indicates an attempt of bringing all out violence to the streets of Kiev (this use of the miners is called the Romanian tactic) wich will give him the excuse he needs to use the military and the security services against the opposition.

So things aren´t looking good, still the candidate that "won" the elections says he won`t go to office until the results are considered legit internacionally, while the opposition candidate gives interviews to the foreign media to try to keep the internacional pressure but says he accepts new elections, so the window of opportunity regarding a negotiated settlement remains open.

I`m worried though, the russians are giving all type of support through the eastern borders that remain open.
 
This is quite ludicrous, really. Why the hell would anyone want to grow closer to the Russian Federation over the European cogglomerate anyway?

Because of the cool hats?
 
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