88 year old ex-SS soldier charged with 3 wartime murders

[victor]

http://blog.taragana.com/n/nazi-hit...der-for-3-wartime-killings-in-holland-209484/

Nazi hit man charged with 3 murders goes on trial


AACHEN, Germany — An 88-year-old former member of the Waffen SS went on trial Wednesday on three counts of murder for the wartime killings of three civilians in the Netherlands.

Heinrich Boere admitted to the three killings to Dutch authorities when he was in captivity after the war but has managed to avoid prosecution for decades — first escaping from the Netherlands before he could be brought to trial, then successfully eluding the courts in Germany.

The session ended after only 1½ hours when the judges said they needed time to consider a motion from the defense to have the prosecutor removed from the case.

Defense attorneys argued that prosecutor Ulrich Maas made statements to the press that called into doubt his objectivity.

The court said it needed until Monday to reach a conclusion and canceled Friday’s session.

Just before the opening of the trial, cries of “Nazis get out! no fascists here!” broke out in the court room as two skinheads in black clothes took seats in the back.

After a few minutes, everybody settled down and the trial began.

Teun de Groot, the son of one of Boere’s victims and a co-plaintiff, stared long and hard at Boere, who sat across the room in his wheelchair.

Ahead of the trial’s start, de Groot had told reporters that he hoped Boere would be convicted.

“I’m in a good mood and I feel like it will go to a good result.” he said.

Outside the court building, a handful of protesters held up a pair of black banners that read “No peace for Nazi criminals” and “Don’t forgive, Don’t forget.”

Boere faces the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison if convicted of the 1944 killings of a bicycle-shop owner, a pharmacist and another civilian while part of an SS death squad codenamed “Silbertanne,” or “Silver Pine.”

The son of a Dutch man and German woman, Boere was 18 when he joined the SS at the end of 1940, only months after German forces had overrun his hometown of Maastricht and the rest of the Netherlands.

After fighting on the Russian front, Boere ended up back in Holland as part of “Silbertanne” — a unit of largely of Dutch SS volunteers like himself tasked with reprisal killings of their countrymen for resistance attacks on collaborators.

In statements after the war that are expected to form the basis for the prosecution’s case, Boere detailed the killings almost shot-by-shot.

Boere’s attorneys have declined to say how they will try to counter the confession, but could try to argue that their client was simply following orders.

“I don’t want to talk here of the defense’s strategy.” Boere’s attorney Gordon Christiansen said outside the court room.

In a 2007 interview with the Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad, Boere himself attempted to justify the killings, saying he was sorry for what he had done but that it was “another time, with different rules.”

The trial is currently scheduled over 13 days through December 18 but could last longer if more time is needed.

Ugh. Seriously, let it go. Not only was it a very very long time ago, but he did what he thought was right at the time, having been ordered to do so. Iraqi resistance members are doing what they think is right, same goes for all US soldiers over there. If he's changed his mind about it and is truly sorry I really don't see the point of this farce.


Interestingly, I doubt this would go to trial if he had just murdered 3 dudes back then without any such motive or background. That's putting different values on human lives.

Prison serves primarily to prevent crime from being committed, not punish people. I doubt an 88-year old man, who is sorry for what he did, is going to go on a killing rampage today. It was a horrible war and horrible things happened, but can't we put it behind us?


And no, I'm not trying to devaluate the horror committed by the SS during WW2. Please don't use that as a counterargument. This is about a trial for a crime that happened 65 years ago. It no longer feels relevant.

 

[Sander]

"Befehl ist befehl" hasn't been a valid excuse since the second World War.

And no, they're not just going to shove aside the law just because it was a long time ago. As long as the statute of limitations hasn't passed for that crime, they're going to prosecute.

 

[Kahgan]

What fucked up people are so bored they have to use energy on something like this? Worse things are happening RIGHT NOW, why not try to save some lives not already lost?

 

[victor]

That's my point.

Sander, I bet that you could dig up a murder committed during the 1950's under different circumstances, and nobody would get charged, even if that person was still alive.

You can't deny that this is a show trial and hence a waste of resources. And yes, as Kahgan said, let's focus on the equally horrible things going down today.

But hey, I don't know, maybe it's as they say, and they've been actively going after this guy for all this time. Talk about a grudge.

 

[Lexx]

But it was in germany and we need to deal with nazis!


Well, the jails are full anyway. So either he comes right into some kind of hospital or I don't know. As far as I know, most jails here do not support people with a age > 80 anyway, if you can say it like that.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Ugh. Seriously, let it go. Not only was it a very very long time ago, but he did what he thought was right at the time, having been ordered to do so. Iraqi resistance members are doing what they think is right, same goes for all US soldiers over there. If he's changed his mind about it and is truly sorry I really don't see the point of this farce.

I think the children/brothers/relatives of said civilians might have a different oppinion regarding time.

Also I would be as well very cautious with "comparisons" regarding Iraqi insurgents/resistance and crimes of German Military in WW2. Quite enough do the mistake today to compare crimes by the Germans and former Soviet soldiers which is neither a good thing and only serves one single point mainly, relativism. Comparing crimes is usualy not a sign of serious handling with history. The main difference between the situation in Iraq is that it literaly comes close to a "civil war" with the US somewhere in the midle ( I know its more complicated then that but its just to make a point ) while many of the crimes done by the German Military in all forms had a System behind it and support on almost all levels. Particularly the higher you went in the ranks.

To say that. There is definetly from the point of crimes a difference between a soldier biased in his usual "duty" or a officers/soldier killing civilians (see the incident of Oradour-sur-Glane 10 June 1944 ). The reason why people like Heinrich Severloh are not held responsible for their actions is cause they have been doing the things in the role of soldiers fighting other soldiers. Its a myth to think Soldiers would not have options to say "No" to certain things. There are enough examples on the east front where whole Generals refused orders of killing civilians and punishment for such disobedience almost never was practised it is known today that if crimes happend they have been done "willingly" by the people. When they asked a group of Wehrmacht soldiers in the east front (not comparable with W-SS or similar) to voluntary "practise" machine gun shooting everyone knew they meant killing prisoners or jews or just people in general. The number of voluntairs in such situations was very small and they almost never got someome to do it.

The number of crimes was still very high particularly the longer the war went and the more vigorous the actions have been on all sides in the conflict (particularly the east it was a war without pardon on both sides of the conflict).

And no, I'm not trying to devaluate the horror committed by the SS during WW2. Please don't use that as a counterargument. This is about a trial for a crime that happened 65 years ago. It no longer feels relevant.

As said. It eventualy feels not relevant to you. But it does to many others.

And sadly or luckily either way you see it the German gouvernement has a certain responsibility regarding such affairs. I am sure preasure plays a unfairly a role here regarding crimes. The preasure to capture someone who killed 100 jews in a concentration camp is eventualy higher then for someome who killed 100 "russian" prisonairs. Its a political matter as well. Sadly.

But that doesnt mean killing should prescribe. War or not. The moment we say that is not anymore relevant to us it starts to be dangerous. At which point do you make one responsible for his actions particularly when it was a war? When he was a leader? A soldier? When he killed more then 5, 10, 500 civilians? When it happend 39 years ago its bad, but when its 40 years its "ok" and we should forget or let it go?

I am not sure what is the right way to deal with all the situations from WW2. But I think people, victims and relatives should have at least the "right" to start a process. To at least have a chance to discover if the actor is guility or not. Cause if we do not grant them this right, many if not even all (even whole organisations) could use that as excuse for everything, that most people are either dead anyway or that its just to long.

There are enough cases today which concern German and Swiss banks for their role in WW2 regarding jewish dental gold and other finances. Up to day there are still quite a few trials in some court about it going where jewish survivors demand their ownership back. The companies know one thing though. Time is working for them as the paintiffs will die eventualy at one point.

 

[alec]

Prison serves primarily to prevent crime from being committed, not punish people.

Maybe in fucking Sweden or fucking Norway or whatever shit country you're from, but over here when you do something that you shouldn't have done according to the law, they punish your arse with a fine or some time behind bars. And sure, while you're over there, they are preventing you from doing it again, but that's just a nice side-effect.

Also: yeah, I agree: stop the stupid witchhunts. These torturers are friggin' octogenerians by now. All they want to do is die in their sleep. Let them. It'll be a hart attack or cancer that kills them anyway.

 

[Maphusio]

So if I murder someone today and get away with it for 50 years until finally being caught I'm expected to get off johnny scott free? I don't think so, where is the justice there let alone that my comparison is balls compared to what this individual did.

Yes he may truly be sorry for what he did but the old saying goes, "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

 

[Brother None]

I love how that article fails to mention certain key facts. Like, I dunno, the fact that Boere had already been condemned to death in 1949 before fleeing the Netherlands into Germany (which does not extradite its citizens. Yes, including Nazi war criminals). Or the fact that part of the reason these trials are going on is at the insistence of the first-generation descendants of the victims, whose lives were horribly mangled by these events.

Sure, the crimes are old and there's worse things going on. Either one of those is a valid argument not to prosecute war criminals because...?

Sander, I bet that you could dig up a murder committed during the 1950's under different circumstances, and nobody would get charged, even if that person was still alive.

No, he would be. There's no statute of limitations on murder. Depending on which country you live in. Germany has a statute of limitations on certain types of manslaughter but now murder of willful bad intent, which these clearly are.

Interesting thing is international law states there's no statute of limitations on crimes against humanity, which Boere was very clearly a part of.

 

[Dragula]

It's quite disgusting how they convict old men in this sickening witch hunts. I agree with alec, let them die in their sleep.

 

[Kahgan]

I don't pity the guy they are prosecuting, I just don't see the point. I mean, how about all the child abuse and rape victim's that never see any justice (silly word though, there is no justice, there never will be) ? How about all the poor buggers who have been screwed around financially and now have a hard time with the financial crisis and all?
A lot of guys were punished after WW2, most people got the point, those who didn't never will anyway. I'd say it would be a much better idea to start doing something about all the stupid fucking neo-nazi groups forming all around, y'know, actually *learning* something from history.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Sander, I bet that you could dig up a murder committed during the 1950's under different circumstances, and nobody would get charged, even if that person was still alive.

That's completely wrong, at least here in the U.S. There is no statute of limitations for murder. There are people working to solve decades-old murders all the time here, especially with advancements in DNA technology.

 

[alec]

Yeah.

"Befehl ist befehl" hasn't been a valid excuse since the second World War.

Why hasn't anyone written an article yet on how ridiculous the invalidity (sp?) of that is?
Because, seriously: "Befehl ist befehl." It simply is. The crazy logic that you should disobey orders from your superiors when you deem them immoral, will most likely get you punished/killed. That works on every level, from home over work to dreadful things like war.
WW2 was a horrible thing. The whole jew "genocide" was just surreal and tragic. BUT CAN WE PLEASE FILE THAT GODDAMN DOSSIER already AND GET ON WITH MORE IMPORTANT THINGS, PEH-LEASE? (sorry: Caps Lock)

Why don't we start sueing the shit out of Genghis Khan's offspring because they carry the evil dna of an international mass murderer. Where does shit like this end? Where does it begin to become so goddamn fucking annoying and unreal that the big masses rise up and tell the politicians to stop abusing WW2 as the raped symbol of tragedy that it is? It's funny how when we are expected to learn from the past, the only fucking example I ever get presented is the fucking holocaust. I never hear no one say: "Oi, we should evacuate all the small cities surrounding volcanoes, we don't want no Pompei 2 now, do we?"

WW2 was a fucking war. Look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me, but war spells nothing but bad shit. War is supposed to be horrible. Bad things happen during wartime. Like people shooting other people, and seriously, pretty much all of these people are fucking innocent sods. And he who wins is always the good guy and he who looses is always the bad guy and it will be the winner (the good guy) who will judge upon the bad guys (the losers).

If Hitler would have won, the world would look pretty much the same as it does now. People would have spoken different languages. And there would have been a different currency, but shit: that's really it, innit? This planet wouldn't have sucked any less than it does now. And it wouldn't have sucked more either, I reckon.

 

[Public]

But it was in germany and we need to deal with nazis!

Because we ain't in the prisoner-takin' business; we in the killin' Nazi business.

 

[generalissimofurioso]

I think we all know why they're doing this.

Nazis are all the same, they all want to bring Hitler back from the grave which would instantly result in a brand new World War.

Bionic Commando proved this fact and they wrote a book about it so it has to be true.

 

[Kyuu]

Is it sort-of a witch hunt? Sure, except in this case, and in this analogy, the guy really is a witch.

Is the guy likely to kill again at 88? Probably not.

Is it really going to make to make much of a difference in the grand-scheme of things for this war criminal (he killed civilians, he wasn't doing his duty as a soldier fighting other soldiers) to get locked-up? Not really.

Should what little justice can be done be done, and the admitted war criminal gets put away for the rest of his life (of which there likely isn't much left)? Uh, why the fuck not?

This trial isn't somehow going to prevent vital resources from being spent on other, more current issues.

Also, have to laugh at the two idiot neo-Nazis who attended the trail. Yeah, I'm sure Mr. Boere is ecstatic two fools from a pathetic sub-culture group attended his trial.

 

[Ravager69]

He did kill those people back then. There is evidence of it and he admitted to the crime. Yeah, he is old, but haven't he lived most of his life unpunished for what he has done? I do not understand how people expect me to feel sorry for him only because someone wants to jail his ass at the age of 88, since all I can feel sorry for are the families of the victims.

Let him rot in jail I say.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Honestly, I think by German law he should be prosecuted for fleeing the Netherlands for crimes committed in that country. That is an obvious offense that cannot be debated.

But, the crime in question committed in the Netherlands shows that punishing him at this point would only do more harm than good to the status-quo of the modern systems of justice. Really, does Germany want to martyr him for the stupid skinheads who support him even though they have nothing in common with him? He was not an orchestrator of the events of war-crimes committed during WW2, he was a cog in the machines. That is what being a soldier is. He wasn't just a man with a gun, or an Officer/Politician dictating the events and calling forth the act of murder. He was a soldier. And questioning the authority of your superiors and disobeying orders will have you shot. In fact, in the fascism of the Third-Reich, he would have had his family committed to death as well for disobeying orders. This is doubly true due to the fact he wasn't a German citizen. He would have been ground into a paste and used to grease the treads on a Panzer. His family along with him.

There is no point to want to punish him for those crimes done under complicated circumstances with very ambiguous morals that always accompany warfare. These types of crimes cannot be prosecuted in the same fashion that others are. We have to evolve our systems to a more logical and modern function, and holding onto past systems of barbarism is only going to lead to a future of unchanging lack of adherence to any ideals of morality. This "But it will make me feel better" idea of justice is what plagues us today.

If you still think he should be punished, then I say nuke the shit out of Germany right now until only a pile of radioactive slag is left. What? No? Apparently you seem to think anyone willing to participate in these actions should be punished. Look at Germany from 1935-1945. 99.9% of the population was happy to pitch in. It's called political socialization. So why not just nuke the cockroaches right now?

"We will not forgive, We will not forget".
The mantra of the moron.
The ritual of the barbarian.
The habits of an animal.


Also, all the Dutchies on this forum seem hell-bent on having him hang. Funny.

 

[alec]

This "But it will make me feel better" idea of justice is what plagues us today.

Amen to that.

 

[Sander]

Honestly, I think by German law he should be prosecuted for fleeing the Netherlands for crimes committed in that country. That is an obvious offense that cannot be debated.

But, the crime in question committed in the Netherlands shows that punishing him at this point would only do more harm than good to the status-quo of the modern systems of justice. Really, does Germany want to martyr him for the stupid skinheads who support him even though they have nothing in common with him? He was not an orchestrator of the events of war-crimes committed during WW2, he was a cog in the machines. That is what being a soldier is. He wasn't just a man with a gun, or an Officer/Politician dictating the events and calling forth the act of murder. He was a soldier. And questioning the authority of your superiors and disobeying orders will have you shot. In fact, in the fascism of the Third-Reich, he would have had his family committed to death as well for disobeying orders. This is doubly true due to the fact he wasn't a German citizen. He would have been ground into a paste and used to grease the treads on a Panzer. His family along with him.

There is no point to want to punish him for those crimes done under complicated circumstances with very ambiguous morals that always accompany warfare. These types of crimes cannot be prosecuted in the same fashion that others are. We have to evolve our systems to a more logical and modern function, and holding onto past systems of barbarism is only going to lead to a future of unchanging lack of adherence to any ideals of morality. This "But it will make me feel better" idea of justice is what plagues us today.

If you still think he should be punished, then I say nuke the shit out of Germany right now until only a pile of radioactive slag is left. What? No? Apparently you seem to think anyone willing to participate in these actions should be punished. Look at Germany from 1935-1945. 99.9% of the population was happy to pitch in. It's called political socialization. So why not just nuke the cockroaches right now?

"We will not forgive, We will not forget".
The mantra of the moron.
The ritual of the barbarian.
The habits of an animal.

You really don't understand the difference between active crimes against humanity and 'regular' warfare (no, deathsquads going after civilians are not part of warfare)? And then you go on to equate being on a deathsquad to being a German civilian during World War 2? That's dense beyond belief.

War is war, yes, but not everything that happens during a war is suddenly not a crime, simply because the people committing them were part of the armed forces.

Also, again, people commit crimes, they get punished for them. As long as the statute of limitations hasn't passed, public prosecutor *has to* prosecute. That's the basis of a justice system. "Well if you just wait long enough, we'll not prosecute you for these murders" is not really something you want to base your prosecution on.

And yes, justice is about retribution as well as deterring crimes, and rehabilitating criminals. Should it not be about retribution? Maybe. But it is part of the justice system now, and they're not going to make exceptions, especially not when they aren't allowed to make those exceptions.

Also, "befehl ist befehl" isn't a valid excuse, because it's much too easy. Soldiers are supposed to be human beings who can think for themselves.
And I'm not sure if you realise this, but you are allowed to kill people in self-defense, it's conceivable that "if I didn't kill them, I'd be killed" would be a valid excuse in a court of law.