AP Ammo Mod - opinions/comments needed

[Glovz]

A while back I started to attempt to fix the "problem" with Armor Piercing (AP) Ammo in the game. I looked at the problem in two ways;

1- The following ammo files had values that caused the damage calculation to return poor/incorrect hit values:
10mm AP ammo, Dmg Mod 1/2
14mm AP ammo, Dmg Mod 1/2
5mm AP ammo, Dmg Mod 1/2
9mm ammo, Dmg Mod 1/2

2- The damage calculation did not distinguish between ammo types and provided for no extra effect against different armor types.

I took the approach to handle both these aspects inside the game engine to avoid having to change .pro files and the engine was the only place to introduce a change for affect against different armor types.

In the end I over shot the mark; changed the entire damage calculation, changed AP ammo, and added an affect for both JHP and AP ammo. This has upset some players, introduced at least one unexpected outcome in game (turrets against F.H. are ineffectual), caused numerous posts in the forum.

What I would like to have is everyone's opinions/comments on is; if I leave the core of the damage calculation alone, would people like to see:
a- Just the ammo changed/corrected. (purposed change to Dmg Mod 7/4)
b- Ammo change/correction plus added affects for JHP and AP ammo against different armor types. (without core calculation change the turrets should once again do some damage to F.H.)

EDIT:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c9125250b82ab09ad2db6fb9a8902bda
The four proto files have been modded to 5/4, click the link to download.
Expand the rar file to a new folder, then copy the four files and paste them here: \BlackIsle\Fallout2\data\proto\items

 

[NovaRain]

What I would like to have is everyone's opinions/comments on is; if I leave the core of the damage calculation alone, would people like to see:
a- Just the ammo changed/corrected. (purposed change to Dmg Mod 7/4)

IMHO 7/4 is pretty close to JHP's 2/1 and much stronger than the 3/2 of some high-end ammo like 2mmEC/4.7mm and FMJ's 1/1.
Should AP's ammo performance be better than FMJ?
Or are you going to tweak other ammo as well? (like the tweak in your Combat Overhaul Mod?)

b- Ammo change/correction plus added affects for JHP and AP ammo against different armor types. (without core calculation change the turrets should once again do some damage to F.H.)

Are the affects like some dmg bonus/minus in your mod?
Sorry for my many questions, but I'd really like to know some more detailed information about the new AP ammo mod you're planning.

 

[Chesty La'Rou]

Well if it is possible within fallout, this is what I suggest.

JHP - This should do significant damage to targets with no armor or a leather jacket. The leather armor would most likely be able to absorb some of the damage due to the expansion of the hollow point. If you shot someone wearing ANYTHING metal its damage would be almost nil due to the expansion of the round (similiar to effects of kevlar).

AP - This would negate almost ALL types of armor, but wouldn't have quite as much destructive power as a JHP due to the fact that the projectile has little to no expansion. This would create problems though as a 10mm AP round shouldn't be able to penetrate the Power or Adv. Power armors, but should JUST penetrate the regular combat armor.


It seems to me that the way the game is made it would almost be impossible to make the different types of ammo behave as they would with real life.

 

[DForge]

Turrets being useless is such a sad sight. They can't even kill an unarmored dogmeat standing right next to them.. unless they score armor piercing crit, which insta-kills everything with 200-300 damage. Uhh.

Personally, I'd settle for 1/1 dmg modifier on all AP ammo instead of that ridiculous 1/2, that's all.

 

[Blackened]

I am using Killap's RP. Here are some numbers that could help you decide that:
10mm AP: 100$/stack, 10mm JHP: 75$/stack
.44 Magnum FMJ: 50$/stack, .44 Magnum JHP: 50$/stack
5mm AP: 120$/stack, 5mm JHP: 100$/stack
9mm: 100$/stack, 9mm Ball: 100$/stack
HM Needler Cartridge: 250$/stack, NM AP Needler Cartridge: 300$/stack

As you see all the AP ammunition has higher cost than the JHP. You could manage the ammo according to the cost differences, or just make the AP damage modifier the same as the usual ammo's.

Or maybe you could make the usual ammo's damage better, but with negative DR mod.

It would be a nice idea if you increase the DR mod of the AP ammo to about 80% or 90%, but you should test if DR can be decreased to a negative number - does ammo that decreases the target's DR would affect someone with 0 DR or not.

It would be unrealistic if AP ammo does more damage to unarmored targets. But it should do more to targets with Combat Armor and better. You shouldn't worry at all about how most AP work against Power Armor or better - at that point of the game the PC should be using weapons with no AP ammo available for them.

Anyway, could you explain me which change made turrets useless?

 

[Glovz]

IMHO 7/4 is pretty close to JHP's 2/1 and much stronger than the 3/2 of some high-end ammo like 2mmEC/4.7mm and FMJ's 1/1.
Should AP's ammo performance be better than FMJ?
Or are you going to tweak other ammo as well? (like the tweak in your Combat Overhaul Mod?)

So looking at the original values for ammo (which unfortunately are not balanced), it feels to me that AP should have better performance than FMJ. Remember also it's the weapons damage range (ex. 10mm Pistol has a damage range of 5-12) that limits a hit as well.

This "fix" is different from my Combat Overhaul Mod in that I am trying to contribute an acceptable fix to killap's UP and RP that does not address balance at all, might be acceptable to all players, and hopefully will not cause any unusual outcomes.

Are the affects like some dmg bonus/minus in your mod?

Yes they would be, but I want people's opinions on whether or not they should be included.


@Chesty La'Rou
If I implement effects, they will be similar to what I have done in my Combat Overhaul Mod. (just the effects, none of the other changes)

Anyway, could you explain me which change made turrets useless?

I rewrote the core damage calculation in the engine (in addition to the added code for fixing AP ammo and adding effects against different armor). This was more than I should have done for fixing the AP ammo "problem".

 

[NovaRain]

@Glovz
Is it possible to make the affects optional? If people want the dmg bonus/minus they can install it separately.

 

[Morticia]

My only experience using your AP Ammo Mod was with Restoration Project also. Seemed a good idea, actually having a use for different ammo types rather than apparently making no difference at all. My unhappy time was fighting Tyler's gang. The battle went on for 15-20 minutes with no one in the gangs getting hurt. That just seemed ridiculous. Making targetted shots and critical hits to the eyes (with a finesse PC) and doing 2-3 points of damage at 100% + small arms skill. Sledgehammer, knuckles, both had almost zero effect also. When that battle was over I switched it back in ddraw.ini and never used it again.

So the game allows for targetted shot chances, what does it take to handle armor the same way? Leather/Metal armor should only give protection against torso, maybe arms and groin hits. Combat armor and better appears like it would offer the only full body protection. I have no idea what is possible.

I agree with part of Blackened's idea, and trying to keep it simple. Maybe giving AP ammo a significant increase in damage would do the trick? This would not address the soft vs. hard targets reality issue, but AP ammo is both rarer and more expensive in the game, so it could just have greater damage against anything. (Maybe it's also extremely high velocity or explosive to account for increased damage to soft targets.) If a player wants to waste it on Pig-rats and peasants, then that's their choice not to conserve it for use against more dangerous opponents.

 

[Glovz]

@Glovz
Is it possible to make the affects optional? If people want the dmg bonus/minus they can install it separately.

Technically yes, but I think I have found a nice balance using slightly different values.

AP ammo would use a Dmg Mod of 5/4

The result using the original engine calculation would look like this:
Example
10mm Pistol used against Metal armor (threshold of 4) and a raw hit of 10 (before factoring in ammo).
using JHP ammo (2/1) causes a hit of 7 (as per original calculation)
using AP ammo (modded to 5/4) causes a hit of 9 (using original calculation)

@everyone
Please let me know what you think, if every one is good with this then I may simply edit the .pro files.

I still think the game is unbalanced and I am still going to continue work on my Combat Overhaul Mod.

 

[Blackened]

@Glovz: IMO this is fairly balanced number for 10mm AP. You should keep in mind the best possible weapon for the ammo type - they are listed here: http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html#items and the weapons with their descriptions are listed here: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Fallout_2_weapons .

I don't think that 5/4 will fit all the AP ammo types - if it's be slightly stronger with 10mm Pistol against Metal Armor, then it should be much stronger with XL70E3 or Avenger Minigun against Combat Armor or so.

You should look at the cost/availability differences between the ammo and the damage done by the weapons used to determine the damage mod. For 10mm AP, 5/4 is a good balanced value, but I wouldn't say so for 5mm AP. Also, you should look the weapons' damage per bullet, not overall - the Avenger Minigun's damage is 10-14, so if its AP does 20% more damage to Metal Armor than its JHP for a single bullet, then it would be the same for a whole burst - you can consider Avenger Minigun's damage to be 10-14, no matter that it has a burst mode.

By the way, you should fix 14mm AP too and/or make 14mm JHP.

And about the Combat Overhaul Mod - you should do something about energy weapons - through the whole game they are nearly as strong as small guns, but they are available at New Reno or later. The same goes for Big Guns, but don't make them "play the same role". One of the Small/Big/Energy should be good for the, the other for the midgame and the third - for lategame. Or you could think of something else.

 

[Glovz]

@Glovz: IMO this is fairly balanced number for 10mm AP. You should keep in mind the best possible weapon for the ammo type - they are listed here: http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout2.html#items and the weapons with their descriptions are listed here: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Fallout_2_weapons .

I don't think that 5/4 will fit all the AP ammo types - if it's be slightly stronger with 10mm Pistol against Metal Armor, then it should be much stronger with XL70E3 or Avenger Minigun against Combat Armor or so.

You should look at the cost/availability differences between the ammo and the damage done by the weapons used to determine the damage mod. For 10mm AP, 5/4 is a good balanced value, but I wouldn't say so for 5mm AP. Also, you should look the weapons' damage per bullet, not overall - the Avenger Minigun's damage is 10-14, so if its AP does 20% more damage to Metal Armor than its JHP for a single bullet, then it would be the same for a whole burst - you can consider Avenger Minigun's damage to be 10-14, no matter that it has a burst mode.

By the way, you should fix 14mm AP too and/or make 14mm JHP.

And about the Combat Overhaul Mod - you should do something about energy weapons - through the whole game they are nearly as strong as small guns, but they are available at New Reno or later. The same goes for Big Guns, but don't make them "play the same role". One of the Small/Big/Energy should be good for the, the other for the midgame and the third - for lategame. Or you could think of something else.

I have kept in mind that more than one weapon will use the same ammo, but what I am trying to do with this is *NOT* address balance, but address the "problem" with all AP ammo in a consistent manner. I have to approach it this way as it is obvious there are differing opinions on what "balanced" is. So when I used the example of 10mm AP ammo having a Dmg Mod of 5/4, I was inferring that I would change all AP ammo list in the first post of this thread to have a Dmg Mod of 5/4.

My Combat Overhaul Mod is where I am trying to address balance, without straying too far from what people are use to in the original game. I think I have done that so far, currently it seems though the changes I have made to the damage formula may need to be tweaked or even reversed back to the original. I am still thinking and experimenting with this.

 

[NovaRain]

@Glovz
About the damage formula, I've read your post and did some calculation myself, but I can't get the result in your example above. Could you explain how the result was calculated?

 

[Blackened]

what I am trying to do with this is *NOT* address balance, but address the "problem" with all AP ammo in a consistent manner.

AP Ammo is working properly, but it is not well balanced. So the more balanced you make it, the more you fixed it. Even if you make it so that it is stronger than JHP when used against Combat Armor or better, this will be a fix. Really, it is impossible to balance it perfectly. IMHO 5/4 for all AP is better than the original 1/2, providing that it won't be gamebreaking overpowered when used under certain circumstances, but I really doubt or this.

I think that AP can be made as nearly as perfect as you just by changing the damage mod(individually for every type of AP ammo, of course)if you use numbers like 15/17, 21/24(those are just random) or something as complicated as those.

 

[Chesty La'Rou]

Could you do anything with the armors, such as adjusting damage resistances and the PC's health and damage thresholds to better adjust the bullet damage multipliers? I mean it might give you more flexibility to work with, although I do suppose it would kind of change the game a little. I dunno just a thought since you all seem like your having problems figuring out correct damage modifiers for the ammunition.

 

[Haenlomal]

I don't know what was done with the AP ammo mod in the past, but to me, it always seem a bit off that the ammo had a DR modifier. Why? Because the DR was suppose to lessen the impact of any energy that got through the DT. By that definition, it shouldn't matter what the ammo being used is: all the DR cares about is that some energy got through, and it better work hard to dissipate that! So in the case of AP ammo, more energy should be coming through in theory, but DR should still dissipate a lot of energy or a little bit of energy in the same proportion.

Therefore, I think that to properly balance out ammo, the DR modifier needs to go, and a DT modifier be applied instead. AP ammo will have negative modifiers to DT, FMJ a slightly negative to no modifier, and JHP having no to slightly positive modifier. Keep the damage modifier of AP ammo slightly below one, and keep the JHP damage modifier to what they are.

This way, JHP ammo should do more damage to unarmoured and lightly armoured targets, while AP ammo should do more damage to heavily armoured targets.

That being said, the million dollar question is: is it possible to tweak the engine to modify DT values instead of DR values? If the answer is no, then feel free to completely disregard my post.

-- The Haen.

 

[Kanhef]

It just struck me that the algorithm is flawed, in that it applies the damage modifier before DT/DR. Realistically, a bullet is affected by armor before it has the chance to do any damage, so it would make more sense to apply DT, then DR, and finally Dmg Mod. The 1/2 damage mod on AP ammo is still too crippling, so I changed it to 1. The calculations look promising:

            10mm pistol, AP     10mm pistol, JHP    14mm Pistol, AP     Assault rifle, AP   Assault rifle, JHP
            was     new         was     new         was     new         was     new         was     new 
unarmored   2-6     5-12        7-18    7-18        6-11    12-22       4-8     8-16        10-20   10-20  
leather     0-4     3-10        4-11    3-10        4-9     10-20       2-6     6-14        5-12    4-11  
metal       0-1     0-7         2-9     0-7         2-7     8-18        0-4     4-12        4-9     2-8   
combat      0       0-5         1-6     0-4         1-6     7-17        0-2     2-10        2-6     1-5     
power       0       0           0-4     0           0       0-10        0       0-3         1-5     0-2 


            Minigun, AP     Minigun, JHP    Avenger minigun, AP Avenger minigun, JHP
            was     new     was     new     was     new         was     new
unarmored   3-5     7-11    9-14    9-14    5-7     10-14       13-18   13-18
leather     1-3     5-9     4-8     2-6     3-5     8-12        7-10    6-9
metal       0-1     3-7     3-6     2-4     1-3     6-10        5-8     4-7
combat      0       1-5     2-4     1-3     0-1     4-8         3-5     2-4
power       0       0       0       0       0       0-1         2-4     0-1

 

[Glovz]

@NovaRain

dmg=Math.round(base_damage*dmg_mult/dmg_div*cbt_diff_mod/100); 
 
var temp=dmg-dmg_thresh; 
 
dmg=Math.round(temp*ammo_dr_adj/100); 
 
dmg=temp-dmg; 
 
if (dmg<0){ 
   dmg=0; 
}

@Blackened
Not looking to give every individual ammo size it's own Dmg Mod values, that goes against the established game's style.

@Chesty La'Rou
Addressed in the Combat Overhaul Mod.

@Haenlomal and Kanhef
Take a close look at my Combat Overhaul Mod (first post).

@Kanhef
The flaw you see in the damage calculation is exactly the flaw I saw and I changed it to take into account DR and DT first then the ammo's Dmg Mod, but this is what lead to the turrets not doing any damage to F.H.

In my next version of the Combat Overhaul Mod I will be increasing the turrets damage min and max hit potential to compensate.

But again, is there no way to come to an agreement on some Dmg Mod values for AP ammo in general, just to have a satisfactory fix in place for killap's UP and RP?

 

[Haenlomal]

Take a close look at my Combat Overhaul Mod (first post).

I have done so. However, unless I have missed something, I don't think I was re-hashing old ideas.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you tried to adjust the balance by tweaking DR modifiers on ammo and armour, tweaking the dmg modifier on selected ammo, and changing the order of when the modifiers are applied.

My admittedly simplistic suggestion was to throw out ALL DR modifiers on ALL ammo. (Note: not armour). If you do this, note that it's no longer possible to have DR beyond 100% and DR below 0%, as the only DR modifiers left are those absolute numbers left on the armour. Instead, change the DR modifier on ammo to DT modifiers. I felt that this would give a more balanced result, though I will still need to do some number crunching.

My only concern is whether or not this is doable: is it possible to change the engine to treat the value currently used as a DR modifier in ammo protos to be a DT modifier instead? If no, then my idea is dead in the water. If yes, maybe some more research could be done.

-- The Haen.

 

[Glovz]

@Haenlomal
I might be possible but not by me unfortunately.

I only cleanly understanding one function within the engine, and in the function the DR Mod of ammo and the DR of armor are already combined in a new variable I've come to understand as DR adjustment (DR+DR Mod).

There are other satellite functions that must deal with DR and AC for that matter. Though unfortunately I cannot debug the engine code to figure that out, it's only once someone has defined what the variables in a function that I can then decipher how the assembly code is treating them.

 

[NovaRain]

But again, is there no way to come to an agreement on some Dmg Mod values for AP ammo in general, just to have a satisfactory fix in place for killap's UP and RP?

Thanks for the formula, Glovz.
IMO a dmg mod of 5/4 might be good enough for the four types of ammo in your first post. At least with 5/4 dmg mod I can now use AK-112 loaded with 5mm AP to actually "hurt" someone in Combat Armor and no need to put my hope on the critical hit.
Probably you could release a test version for people to test them in game?