Are JRPG's this lousy?

[Walpknut]

Meh, Matador is only hard for the unprepared.

 

[Kilus]

After the first Wizardry and Ultima games Western RPGs went one way and JRPGs went in their own direction. That way they are so different.

isn't wizardry hack'n'slash?

Wizardry 1 and Ultima 1 came out in 1981. It was all hack and slash till Ultima IV which didn't have a big influence in Japan.

 

[Token-not-found]

After the first Wizardry and Ultima games Western RPGs went one way and JRPGs went in their own direction. That way they are so different.

isn't wizardry hack'n'slash?

Wizardry 1 and Ultima 1 came out in 1981. It was all hack and slash till Ultima IV which didn't have a big influence in Japan.

Yeah, i was talking about the whole series.

Like i said - my list contains all worthwhile (as defined by me) RPG's from 1974 to present and Wizardry is not present.

I don't include any game that is mostly combat and has light non-combat elements.

I include games like Quest for Glory, ultima 4-7 , Betrayal at Kondor etc.

It only contains only 4 JRP'S.

 

[Walpknut]

Shin Megami Tensei games have non combat mechanics in one way or another, you get better demons early on in the main series by negotiating with them in battle, or you get better Demon Fusions in the newer Personas by completing the Social Links (interacting with certain characters) and in 4 those links give you access to special Traits for your party members (and in the upcoming vita version, evene new attacks) and an increase in Stats at the end.
SMT is not that much about grinding (you can do it if you want anyway) but about using the mechanics in your favor, they are simple to get, but hard to master.

 

[Guiltyofbeingtrite]

I keep reading grand reviews about final fantasy. Could you describe it shortly?

Uh, which? You do know they're going on like, near 20 games now right, including a few turn-based strategy games and a couple others. Also one JRPG I'd recommend quite a bit is Lost Odyssey, it's on 360 and I think PS3 possibly? Also the Shin Megami Tensei games are great, including the Persona series.

Lost Odyssey is fantastic. It took me taking a break for over a year in the middle of it to realize. I think someone here said it's the best Final Fantasy game since 6, which is a great way to look at it. It's only on xbox 360 I believe.

 

[Kyuu]

Man, I will fist-fight you over this. I kept one save at the furthest point where you could still play Blitzball, when you had all the prospective players and stuff available. They could honestly release a stand-alone game on PSN/XBLA and I'd play the hell out of it.

I know most people hated Blitzball, but I'm with you on this. I always make sure to win that first "unwinnable" game, and did a lot of Blitzball. It could get tedious, of course, but it was a fairly simple side-game. With some development, I'd totally play a stand-alone Blitzball game over any of those shitty football/baseball/whatever-sport games.

But then again, I love Final Fantasy VII and enjoy the plot and characters of FFX, so I guess I don't fit in in this thread.

Oh, and the Phantasy Star games were great (with the possible exception of number 3). If you're expecting it to play like a CRPG, then you're bound to be disappointed. I have no problem admitting they (like most JRPGs) are basically action/adventure-games with stat building. And don't mistake some questionable localization for bad writing, please.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I know most people hated Blitzball, but I'm with you on this. I always make sure to win that first "unwinnable" game, and did a lot of Blitzball.

If Blitzball was a proper standalone game then yes, it would be awesome. As it was, it was a decent minigame. If you look at it as a minigame, it's fine. If you look at it as a game, it's crap. A 2D playing field with underdeveloped gameplay.

But then again, I love Final Fantasy VII and enjoy the plot and characters of FFX, so I guess I don't fit in in this thread.

I like FFVII, especially the plot, but it's not amazing writing nor is the underlying system the best to grace the Final Fantasy series. FFX's problem was that Titus and Yuna were horrible protagonists. They had extremely simplistic and obnoxious personalities. Granted, I think the voice acting and writing (localisation) were a major factor in why those characters are so hatable. The "It's my story" crap was really, REALLY obnoxious. Lulu, Auron, Waka, and Kimari were cool though. It also doesn't help that the game has a really good introduction that the rest of the game fails to live up to and which provides contrast to see the failure of the rest of the game. That said, I really like the Sphere grid.

Oh, and the Phantasy Star games were great (with the possible exception of number 3).

I couldn't stand the combat of the original games, it was completely passive. Why the fuck have drawn out combat if you aren't going to do anything?

 

[Kyuu]

If Blitzball was a proper standalone game then yes, it would be awesome. As it was, it was a decent minigame.

Well yeah, it was a mini-game. Obviously it would need more development to stand on its own. But isn't that what I said?

FFX's problem was that Titus and Yuna were horrible protagonists. They had extremely simplistic and obnoxious personalities.

Yeah, this is the mind-set I don't understand. Why does every character in fiction have to be some "deep", complex mess in order to be a good character?

If you find their personalities "obnoxious", well, that's a personal thing there's no sense in arguing with. I never found them so, although I'll grant that they could've found a voice actor for Tidus that didn't sound so whiny.

FFX definitely had one of my favorite combat/character development systems of all the games.

I couldn't stand the combat of the original games, it was completely passive. Why the fuck have drawn out combat if you aren't going to do anything?

Not sure I understand. You pick commands from a menu, watch a short animation, rinse and repeat. Pretty common among RPGs (and JRPGs in particular). That's in essence what you do with all the FFs before XII's crappy combat system.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

FFX's problem was that Titus and Yuna were horrible protagonists. They had extremely simplistic and obnoxious personalities.

Like half of the story-focused FF games have that problem. The protagonist is either too obnoxious or too whiny. Zidane is probably the only bearable FF protagonist, although he isn't really deep either.


As for OP's query, JRPGs basically evolved from early versions of PnP games, so if you're looking for anything like the Western RPG experience, you're not going to find it. There are great JRPGs, but it seems like you simply dislike the way the genre does things, so maybe it's better to move on if you can't enjoy these games for what they are.

Also, I'm surprised no one mentioned Legend of Mana or the original Valkyrie Profile, both of which are excellent games and highly recommended.

That's in essence what you do with all the FFs before XII's crappy combat system.

I dunno, I found FFXII's combat to be an improvement over the system that pretty much failed to evolve in 20 years. Though the numbered FF games have some of the worst/simplest/most boring combat among JRPGs in general.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Well yeah, it was a mini-game. Obviously it would need more development to stand on its own. But isn't that what I said?

I guess it was. I clearly wasn't working at high power when I wrote that. I was partly trying to explain the two minds on the game and why people love or hate it.

Not sure I understand. You pick commands from a menu, watch a short animation, rinse and repeat. Pretty common among RPGs (and JRPGs in particular). That's in essence what you do with all the FFs before XII's crappy combat system.

I've gotten the menu to pop up and swear I've chosen options from it but they've never actually done anything. I swear that the combat plays itself out without input, maybe I'm doing something wrong but that's been my experience with Phantasy Star II the 3 or 4 times I've started it and with Phantasy Star III the one time I started it. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Like half of the story-focused FF games have that problem. The protagonist is either too obnoxious or too whiny. Zidane is probably the only bearable FF protagonist, although he isn't really deep either.

X and XII by far have the most annoyingly whiny protagonists. I can also see how people would put Squall, the most angsty protagonist, up there too. I'd say that VI has pretty good characters in those regards though. I liked VII pretty well in that regard too, they did a good job explaining why Cloud was a mess and Cloud being silent meant that we didn't didn't hear any whining.

Also, I'm surprised no one mentioned Legend of Mana or the original Valkyrie Profile, both of which are excellent games and highly recommended.

Legend of Mana didn't impress me but Valkyrie Profile 2 was an excellent game, even if the plot twist at the end was lame.

I dunno, I found FFXII's combat to be an improvement over the system that pretty much failed to evolve in 20 years. Though the numbered FF games have some of the worst/simplest/most boring combat among JRPGs in general.

FFXII's combat involves properly setting up gambits then moving your characters around. The level of interaction is painfully low. More or less it's a singleplayer MMO with worse combat. Granted it probably hit me harder than most since I was doing a 100% completion run when I realized and accepted how bored I was with the game and gave up on it.

Speaking of which, it's also a shining example of how quality is more important that quantity. Throwing in a bunch of trash content is bad for the game, not good! Edit!! Granted FFXII didn't get lost in the side content like Chrono Cross did but that's a pretty high water mark to beat. That said, Chrono Cross's side content was better than FFXII's.

On the evolution of FF combat, I disagree that it didn't evolve but I agree that it didn't evolve enough. The underlying systems became far more interesting over time but you're right that how combat was hashed out was basically identical between FFII and FFX.

It's amusing to me that they could improve upon that in other games (Chrono Trigger implemented positioning) yet they never innovated with Final Fantasy (granted Chrono Cross took a leap backward too). I don't consider FFXII innovation because they basically copy pasted MMO combat into the game in place of their old system. It was different but not innovative.

Though the numbered FF games have some of the worst/simplest/most boring combat among JRPGs in general.

I don't know about that though I would say it's generally the worst of the best. Random encounters are a plague which needed to be eradicated 25 years ago and it haunts most FF games.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

FFXII's combat involves properly setting up gambits then moving your characters around. The level of interaction is painfully low. More or less it's a singleplayer MMO with worse combat. Granted it probably hit me harder than most since I was doing a 100% completion run when I realized and accepted how bored I was with the game and gave up on it.

I feel like we've had this discussion before, but I still think that if one wanted to maximize character interaction and then went on to rely mostly on gambits, it's like shooting yourself in the foot. I played with a minimal amount of gambits and customized most actions, and I didn't have that problem. It's not a core game mechanic, it's a way to customize the companion AI's stupidity to your liking.

Not saying FFXII was perfect, but definitely a huge step forward from the "select action - watch combat animation" combat mode that barely changed since 1987.

Legend of Mana didn't impress me but Valkyrie Profile 2 was an excellent game, even if the plot twist at the end was lame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie_Profile

Note that I'm talking about the original here, and mostly focusing on combat, since we're on that topic. It's also one of the few (the only one that comes to mind, actually) non-dating-Sim-hybrid JRPGs I've played that has variable endings.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I feel like we've had this discussion before, but I still think that if one wanted to maximize character interaction and then went on to rely mostly on gambits, it's like shooting yourself in the foot.

Yeah, we agree to disagree. I never had a problem with efficacy once I got all of the gambits I needed (speaking of bad design...) and generally found the manual actions more clumsy to deal with.

Regardless, we agree that the combat in Final Fantasy is in need of being brought up to speed with the current era.

Note that I'm talking about the original here, and mostly focusing on combat, since we're on that topic. It's also one of the few (the only one that comes to mind, actually) non-dating-Sim-hybrid JRPGs I've played that has variable endings.

I know, I haven't played the first (not sure how I left that out...) so I was going with my experience with the second. I was trying to back up your suggestion.

 

[Surf Solar]

I played FFX because I really loved the turnbased system, not for the characters. :X Characters and their "emotional depth" dont fucking matter when you want to min-max and "complete" your build to defeat the games hardest bosses.

 

[Guiltyofbeingtrite]

A pretty boring JRPG with great combat is Resonance of Fate. It's all gunplay and hybrid realtime/turnbased with objects in the environment and cover playing important roles.

If the plot and environments were better I wouldn't have put it down. Might give it another go soon, it's a good challenge.

 

[Alphadrop]

Oh ta, been trying to remember the name of that game.

Wanted to try it out just for the combat system as flipping out with pistols against big monster thingies makes up for almost everything.

 

[Guiltyofbeingtrite]

Oh ta, been trying to remember the name of that game.

Wanted to try it out just for the combat system as flipping out with pistols against big monster thingies makes up for almost everything.

it's worth trying. The gunplay is fun and requires a fair amount of strategy as most enemies can't be taken down by just shooting and require being weakened and defense barriers destroyed to setup kills.