Changing skill-dependent starting items

[Sduibek]

Has anyone thought about this? I have been wanting to expand or at least brainstorm these items. Like, what should the other skills give? (Speech, Gambling, Big Guns). Do the current items match sufficiently to the skills? etc.

Implementing the change is super easy, I'm just looking for different viewpoints on what changes might be useful, because many minds is always better than one, for such tasks.

The point here is to differentiate more clearly between chosen tag skills (and thus play styles) by making a wider difference between those character's starting resources.

Small Guns: 24 10mm JHP
Unarmed: Brass Knuckles
Throwing: 2 Throwing Knife
First Aid: 2 Stimpak
Doctor: 1 First Aid Kit
Steal and/or Lockpick: 1 Lock Picks
Science: 2 Mentats, 2 Buffout
Repair: 1 Tool
Outdoorsman: 3 Water Flask

Ideas--

Small Guns            (same)
Lockpick            (same)
Speech             2 Mentats
Energy Weapons            2 small energy cells
Unarmed            brass knuckles, 2 buffout
Melee Weapons            Knife & Club, 1 buffout
Big Guns            Flamer? 5mm ammo?
Throwing             3 knives, 1 explosive grenade
First Aid            first aid kit 
Doctor            doctor's bag
Sneak            stealthboy
Steal            (same)
Traps            2 Dynamite
Science            [why the fuck does Science get Buffout?]
Repair            (same)
Barter            2 Mentats
Gambling            bottle caps (100 maybe?)
Outdoorsman   food items in addition to flasks, and/or some extra flares

Discuss.

 

[NovaRain]

It's a bit pointless giving players only fuel/cells at start IMHO, unless you're planning to add some low tier BG/EW in the game. For sneak, stealth boy seems out of place for me, since I always consider it as a mid/late-game item. For trap maybe just one dynamite. Giving a club for melee seems redundant, because it has the same damage as knife.

 

[Eternauta]

I don't see why the Vault Dweller would have caps on him when he leaves the vault.

Anyway, modding the Dweller's starting gear is not a bad idea, but imho it'd be better to make it easier to use Big Guns, Energy Weapons and Throwing as main combat skills: Flamer and Laser Pistol available through quest - fuel, SEC's and throwing knives found on raiders, shops or first important NPCs (Aradesh, Seth...).

Right now, Small Guns, Unarmed and Melee Weapons are the only 100% reliable combat skills while Big Guns and Energy Weapons are rather end-game skills (I never used Laser/Plasma pistols because I had good SG's already and was only interested in Laser/Plasma rifle or Gatling) and Throwing is pretty much ignorable. Although this is also because low (untagged) Throwing skill is useless so I never even brought a few grenades in case the enemies were close to each other during battle. (It isn't even really confortable to use more than 2 weapons in Fallout, 4 AP's to open iventory and switch weapons can be too much sometimes, but that's another story).

That is why I don't think modding the starting gear would have such an impact on our playstyle. Why get SEC's if we don't have a weapon to use them with? I used to tag Energy Weapons just because I knew I could use Plasma Rifle and Gatling Laser near the end of the game (in other words, I'd just sell those SEC's, buy more Small Guns gear and then use MFC weaponry later).

 

[Sduibek]

I don't see why the Vault Dweller would have caps on him when he leaves the vault.

Yeah, I know. There's gotta be something we can give for Gambling taggers though.

Anyway, modding the Dweller's starting gear is not a bad idea, but imho it'd be better to make it easier to use Big Guns, Energy Weapons and Throwing as main combat skills: Flamer and Laser Pistol available through quest - fuel, SEC's and throwing knives found on raiders, shops or first important NPCs (Aradesh, Seth...).

It's a bit pointless giving players only fuel/cells at start IMHO, unless you're planning to add some low tier BG/EW in the game.

Good points. I'll add that to my To Do list... figure out a way to make big guns and energy weapons useful. i agree, it's always frustrated me that i really want to tag those but it feels shitty doing so because it's just "wasted" for like at least half the game (depending how fast you're going through the game).

That is why I don't think modding the starting gear would have such an impact on our playstyle. Why get SEC's if we don't have a weapon to use them with? I used to tag Energy Weapons just because I knew I could use Plasma Rifle and Gatling Laser near the end of the game (in other words, I'd just sell those SEC's, buy more Small Guns gear and then use MFC weaponry later).

Yeah, it's kind of a crappy deal. I mean there's some tweaking that can be done, and giving of items from skills that gave nothing previously, but you are right -- basically because Fallout has so few items to begin with, only a very small number would make sense for each skill.

 

[Eternauta]

Fallout has so few items to begin with, only a very small number would make sense for each skill.

I obviously think that it's better to have more items for more variety, but still the low number of weapons and armors in FO1 was not imo the main problem. This was, again, that during half of the game you are forced to rely on certain combat skill and cannot rely on others. It was a pity that this was still true for FO2 and FOT.

Another problem with editing the Vault Dweller's starting gear: most skills are quite useless

Wild idea appeared: if you've tagged Outdoorsman, you start with a Rope in your inventory I guess it kind of makes sense both in a "realism!" way (the Vault is hidden in a mountainous area) as well as about game quests (you could go directly to Vault 15). But again, small impact.

 

[Sduibek]

True true. Well hey, small impact is better than no impact.

I'll look into making weaker weapons for BG and EW though, that really needs to be done.
EDIT: Actually, I think if done right that might not be necessary except for BG. Like you said with EW I think if laser pistols and whatnot are available earlier that's already taken care of. The three weapons for the other skill though are so powerful, I think a new one might be needed to balance it. Or maybe a "bad quality" (think item condition) version can be found earlier? Hm. Or like, "portable" version with only one shot (flamer) something like that...

 

[NovaRain]

I personally like the Incinerator in New Vegas: a fireball launching cannon, much weaker but has better range than Flamer. Just don't know if it's possible to make the concept work in FO1&2 engines.

 

[G-Flex]

I humbly suggest that if a player starts with First Aid, Traps, and Throwing tagged, they should start off with a bonus cyanide pill.

 

[Sduibek]

I humbly suggest that if a player starts with First Aid, Traps, and Throwing tagged, they should start off with a bonus cyanide pill.

lol.

Throwing gets a lot of shit but I don't know why. Grenades are awesome. You can basically one-hit-kill any robot, and all of them do splash damage. Plasma grenades can be thrown up to four times a round if you've got Fast Shot and whatnot. I've had plasma grenades save my ass lots of times.

 

[Sduibek]

I don't know if these are even used in Fallout 2, but in the Fallout 2 files there is a pistol flamethrower animation (suh-weeeeeet) and a pistol burst animation, and a green spraying pistol animation.

So, I figure those could be used to make an interesting Big Guns weapons.

 

[SnapSlav]

This would be a rather wild, and radical suggestion, but it's what came to mind... What would you think about the prospect of changing the classification of a couple weapons to Big Guns? Specifically Shotguns, I'm thinking. From a "realism" perspective, shotguns have a helluva nasty kick to them, so they take a bit of a different approach to use and maintenance than your standard rifle. From a game mechanics perspective, shotguns are a hard-hitting weapon that you can very easily demolish your adversaries with upon acquisition, but they lack the range of most rifles, and their stopping power pales when compared to the other, end-game weapons. With the obvious exception of the Sawed Off, why not make the other Shotguns (there's only the 2, in FO1, if I'm not forgetting any?) "Lower Tier Big Guns"?

That's the only thought I had. It would certainly help balance out the great disparity in the number of usable weapons between each Skill category...

 

[G-Flex]

I honestly don't know if "big guns" was ever a good weapon classification to begin with. An assault rifle and a bozar/light support weapon seem a lot more similar than a bozar and a flamethrower.

 

[SealyStar]

I honestly don't know if "big guns" was ever a good weapon classification to begin with. An assault rifle and a bozar/light support weapon seem a lot more similar than a bozar and a flamethrower.

I always thought that if they should axe one weapon category, it should be energy weapons. There is a rather sizable difference between how one handles an assault rifle compared to a flamethrower, for example. But all of the energy weapons in Fallout, as different in mechanics as they might be, are shaped and handled exactly like a standard firearm. I always though EW should have been axed, and all its weapons reclassified as BGs or SGs.

 

[Sduibek]

I honestly don't know if "big guns" was ever a good weapon classification to begin with. An assault rifle and a bozar/light support weapon seem a lot more similar than a bozar and a flamethrower.

I always thought that if they should axe one weapon category, it should be energy weapons. There is a rather sizable difference between how one handles an assault rifle compared to a flamethrower, for example. But all of the energy weapons in Fallout, as different in mechanics as they might be, are shaped and handled exactly like a standard firearm. I always though EW should have been axed, and all its weapons reclassified as BGs or SGs.

However, the maintenance and handling of these weapons would be different. This doesn't have an effect in-game, but whatever the EW equivalent of a jam is, when that occurs, someone with 20% in EW would probably melt their arms off whereas someone skilled would know what to do.

 

[SnapSlav]

I think most don't look at it from that standpoint because the in-game affect of the weapon skills is accuracy. If more points in Energy Weapons means that you will have a better chance of hitting your target, then the Skill should only associate with handling. And by that logic, if they handle the same, why differentiate between them? I'm not saying that one is truer than the other, but it certainly gives something to consider.

Some would argue why not separating the weapons categories by their ammunition, instead? Why not have Ballistics, Explosives, Energy, Fire? Well, if that were their separate designations, then we'd have a really disproportionate list of weapons and weapons skills. Plus, why would one need to be so knowledgeable in Explosives be to able to throw a grenade? Would lack of knowledge in Energy weapons make it any harder to throw a Plasma Grenade? Indeed, separating the skills by your ability to know how to deal with any mishaps they encounter can make sense, it might not make any sense on how that knowledge has any logical application.

Anyway, pointless thoughts and considerations...

 

[dudejo001]

That one suggestion about axing energy weapons may not be perfect but it inspired me something that's one step closer.

Instead, we axe Big Guns and move the weapons into Energy Weapons. Obviously, those weapons don't shoot lasers but unlike normal firearms, their firing cycles are generally operated by a separate energy source. Usually some kind of electric motor (a pump for the Flamer, perhaps).

Although the Rocket Launcher would be a bit harder to justify. It's basically a trigger that cause the projectile's propellant to react, similar to a standard firearm. While it's a relatively bulky weapon, the Rocket Launcher could possibly classify as a Small Gun because by its very nature, it's a recoil-less weapon.

 

[Lexx]

That... is a really bad idea. The big guns in the games really have nothing to do with energy weapons, even if you try to imagine some sort of electric motor.

Besides, taking out a skill won't work anyway. You will have to replace it with something else and then you will have the same skill redundancy thing again, just under a different name.

 

[dudejo001]

I'm not imagining the electric motor. That's exactly how the minigun in Predator worked behind the scenes. It was hooked-up to a couple of car batteries.

Since it operates on batteries, it'll most likely have electrical circuitry comparable to those in a laser or plasma weapon. Speaking of which, laser and plasma technology is nothing alike and yet they use the same skillset.

What would you suggest, then?

 

[Sduibek]

What would you suggest, then?

Leave the skills as-is, perhaps adding a few items like I discussed with the flame pistol or timed availability of items etc such as earlier access to laser pistol.

Sometimes flawed design cannot be fixed without a massive overhaul of the entire game itself, which of course is not worth it.

 

[Dude101]

I humbly suggest that if a player starts with First Aid, Traps, and Throwing tagged, they should start off with a bonus cyanide pill.

lol.

That is actually a good idea for a diplomat build. It would add a sense of urgency to your words.