Continuation of Previous Arguement

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guest
  • Start date Start date
G

Guest

Guest
The other arguement was getting too long.

Alright first we must split RPG's into 3 distinct categoies. One: The so called "true" RPG. This is one with many paths to take and many different ways to win, usually non-linear, Character development, etc. Game like FO, PS:T, etc.


Two: The "hack and slash" RPG. This is one that is more combat oriented than the "true" RPG, less NPC interaction but much more combat. Some character development but not the main focus of the game. Non-linear or linear. Games like Diablo, and too an extent BG.

Three: The "action" RPG. These are RPG's that are like Zelda and System Shock. 3D Behind the person view or first person view. These are usually confused with being RPGs or FPS's. They can be either Hack and slash or intellegent man's RPG.

Those are the three segments of RPG's. Now FT:BOS is none of these it is as Rosh stated a Cross-genre. Tactical Strategy game with RPG elements. Now let me tell you if you think Strategy games do not require a lot of thinking, go out and buy Alpha Centauri or Civilaztion 2. Compared to these games the FO's and almost all other RPG's are a walk in the park. Strategy games require more logic skills and strategic thought than RPG's. This doesn't make RPG's bad however they are usually more in-depth than Strategy games and I like that. I aggre with him, that it seems that your main problem is that it is not an RPG. I am not trying to be mean but You have to try new things once in a while. This could actaully help The fallout series instead of hurt it. and if you are worried about people buying the game for combat then posting combat oriented things, just ignore them or create a speerate board for people that want to talk about combat. No big deal. Something that really got me mad was that I belive Xotor said that FT:BOS is goin to be a Hack and slash. My question is How do you know this? are you and oracle are you god? I did not think so. Do not make usumtions that something will be good or bad before you have even seen it or played it. You do not know if it will be good or bad. I do not know either. To think you know is pompous and naive (the two buzzwords of the arguement). BYW naive means deficent of worldy wisdom or informed judgement. If you assume that it is bad before you play it you are definatly naive. Do not assume it is bad because it is not a damn RPG!!!!! I like RPG's as much as the next person I play pen and paper RPG's all of the time, but I am also openminded. You should not think FT:BOS is going to be bad becuase it is not an RPG. That is stupidity, that is IGNORANCE!!!! IT MAY NOT BE COMBAT ORIENTED!!! I do not knwo if it is not going to be but YOU DO NOT KNOW IF IT WILL BE EITHER!!! Who says that taking Fallout away from the RPG will ruin it, It seems only you and a handful of others do. You do not know if it will, we will not know until it comes out. Do not be Biased.

More will come later.


Skynet Security Systems Logging off....
 
Ahem.

A not, if you don't mind.

Wrong board. We have a seperate board for this now.

No, nothing you did wrong, but all discussion of F:T should go to the F:T board.
 
Good, Bad, Ugly?

<< If you assume that it is bad before you play it you are definatly naive. >>

Not necessarily true. 'Bad' was used to describe his/her opinion of what he/she thinks the game will be. Since you can't force someone to feel a particular way about a game, his/her use of 'bad' is correct. From your posts I would assume you think the game will be good. Are either of you wrong? Nope, just a difference of opinion.

You also don't have to play something to think it will be bad. Look at all those hunting games they were putting out, they sure looked like crappy games to me. I know I'm not going to like playing it. Obviously, lots of people liked them because they sold like crazy.

Skie
 
RE: Good, Bad, Ugly?

><< If you assume that it is bad before you play it you are definatly naive. >>
>

Does that also apply to Battlefield: Earth?

>Not necessarily true. 'Bad' was
>used to describe his/her opinion
>of what he/she thinks the
>game will be. Since
>you can't force someone to
>feel a particular way about
>a game, his/her use of
>'bad' is correct. From
>your posts I would assume
>you think the game will
>be good. Are either
>of you wrong? Nope, just
>a difference of opinion.
>

Agreed in full.

>You also don't have to play
>something to think it will
>be bad. Look at
>all those hunting games they
>were putting out, they sure
>looked like crappy games to
>me. I know I'm
>not going to like playing
>it. Obviously, lots of
>people liked them because they
>sold like crazy.


Actually, the only hunting game I enjoyed was Deer Avenger 2. Just for the humor factor.
 
>
>Those are the three segments of
>RPG's. Now FT:BOS is
>none of these it is
>as Rosh stated a Cross-genre.
> Tactical Strategy game with
>RPG elements. Now let
>me tell you if you
>think Strategy games do not
>require a lot of thinking,
>go out and buy Alpha
>Centauri or Civilaztion 2.

Those are strategy/sim, not tactical combat.
BOS is going to be tactical combat. X-Com without the base/construction part.
Please do some research before you make comparasins. Comparing Alpha Cetauri and Civ 2 to games like JA2/X-Com is like comparing apples and oranges.

>Compared to these games the
>FO's and almost all other
>RPG's are a walk in
>the park. Strategy games
>require more logic skills and
>strategic thought than RPG's.

Wrong.
Most good RPGs require tact, guile, and a bit of logic/puzzle-solving of their own. If you are referring to "RPG's" like Diablo, then yes, just about any idiot can play them. But you can easily separate the idiots from the true RPG-lovers when you see people complaining about a game having "too many words" and "having to talk things out", or "not being able to kill anything they want".

Tactical combat (remember, you have the genre wrong entirely) doesn't need any great intelligence to figure out. Hell, they teach marines tactical maneuvers, and they aren't paid to be particularly bright as a whole.

>I am
>not trying to be mean
>but You have to try
>new things once in a
>while.

Why not a shooter, sim, racing game, etc by that logic?
Oh, and why not make an online game too, since people were whining about it for a couple of years. And then the original can fade into obscurity much like Ultima/UO has done?

>This could actaully
>help The fallout series instead
>of hurt it.

Again, try the above, if change is so good.

>and
>if you are worried about
>people buying the game for
>combat then posting combat oriented
>things, just ignore them or
>create a speerate board for
>people that want to talk
>about combat. No big
>deal.

No, they will insist on the sequels of the RPG to be more like the combat game. Just like the Diablo/Nox/DarkStone/Baldur's Gate slashfest kiddies were complaining about Planescape: Torment.

>Something that really
>got me mad was that
>I belive Xotor said that
>FT:BOS is goin to be
>a Hack and slash.
>My question is How do
>you know this? are
>you and oracle are you
>god? I did not
>think so. Do not
>make usumtions that something will
>be good or bad before
>you have even seen it
>or played it.

When they say it's going to be a tactical combat game, wat does that lead you to conclude?
I know it doesn't take a genius to figure THAT one out.

>You
>do not know if it
>will be good or bad.
> I do not know
>either. To think you
>know is pompous and naive
>(the two buzzwords of the
>arguement). BYW naive means
>deficent of worldy wisdom or
>informed judgement. If you
>assume that it is bad
>before you play it you
>are definatly naive.

No, to be persistantly optomistic when all past instances of this occuring to various series, eventually leading to their fade into obscurity or the focus and quality being lost, then THAT is being naive.

>Do
>not assume it is bad
>because it is not a
>damn RPG!!!!! I like
>RPG's as much as the
>next person I play pen
>and paper RPG's all of
>the time, but I am
>also openminded. You should
>not think FT:BOS is going
>to be bad becuase it
>is not an RPG.
>That is stupidity, that is
>IGNORANCE!!!! IT MAY NOT
>BE COMBAT ORIENTED!!!

Again, what does the words "tactical combat game" lead you to conclude? That it's a racer? We are not saying that it's going to be bad because it's not an RPG in itself (and thank you for stop putting words into our mouths), it's that we are saying that it's a rip-off of the original concept of Fallout. Fallout was a return to the old-school, and was so popular because of that. So it's normal to see fans get a bit disgruntled when they start to see what has happened to other series happen to a game they really cherish.

>Who says that taking Fallout
>away from the RPG will
>ruin it, It seems only
>you and a handful of
>others do. You do
>not know if it will,
> we will not know
>until it comes out.
>Do not be Biased.

Biased, when every other instance of cross-genre movement I can think of has just about failed? That's called making a judgement on experience. No, that's called making a judgement on common occurances. M&M, Ultima, Final Fantasy, X-Com.
 
Ummm.. It will be combat oriented. That's what tactical games are about, combat.

There's nothing wrong with that. After all, this is a story about the BOS's war with the supermutants. As I posed to Rosh on DAC, "How can you tell a war story without combat? Are you just going to walk up to them and use your speech skill to talk them in to killing themselves?"
 
<< "How can you tell a war story without combat? Are you just going to walk up to them and use your speech skill to talk them in to killing themselves?" >>

Seemed to work with the Master. I didn't have to kill any of those mutants running around thanks to it/him/her.

Skie
 
RE: Good, Bad, Ugly?

You make a very valid point, but form these differences of opinion stem arguements.
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON May-17-00 AT 05:02PM (GMT)[p]I was not comparing AC to fallout or X-com, I just brought it up for reasons unknowen to me. Actaully that defintion of naviety was right, it is Websters definition. I am quite aware that some RPG's require puzzlesolving and tact and conigtive thing and logic skills, but and we all must admit this, Fallout was a bit lacking in the puzzle department don't get me wrong I love the game, but the thing that made the game a gem was the character devlopment and story line. ever played Commandos? That game was particularly hard and required logic skills and a lot of tact to win, it was not just combat. Tactical combat is not something to be taught, you make your own strategies and tactics. You make the desicions for youself on what to do. Part of what makes Tactical Strat so appealing is that you can create your own strategies and are in total control of your team no. That sense of control and the fact that you must think and strategize make Tactical Strat so appealing. Tactical Combat is putting these strategies and tactics into use and seeing if they work and if they don't work you must be able to think quickly and strategize quickly in order to survive, so don't say that Tactical Combat does not need intellegence, thats a conundrum. Why are you bashing the marines? How do you know they are not particularly bright? They may be portrayed like that but thats a stereotype, and stereotypes are usually based on one or a very very small number of people. All right Rosh, why not a shooter, space sim, racer, etc.? Why not? What is wrong with being optomistic, and btw if I was overly optomistic I would be saying *ahem* "Oh yes Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel is going to be a great game, it will be I know this." I am not saying this, I do not know if it will be good or bad. Oh yes I forgot to put something in. What I meant was that FT:BOS may not be totally combat oriented, I did not mean That the game was non-combat. I do not think it is a racer or a National Geographic Documentary. I am saying that the game might not be totally combat oriented. It might have a puzzle part and negotiation or interrigation part. Although I amdit The puzzle part is doubtful although there could be puzzles like breaking into a complex getting past key codes, etc. In fact creating strategies is a puzzle in it self, figuring where the best place to go is, who to take down first, etc. all this is a puzzle in itself and creating the best tactics is also a puzzle. How can you say its a rip-off, it s by the samne damn company;Interplay! Biasness is Biasness no matter where it originated from. Besides there were also good Cross-Genre movements Battlezone, Thief 1&2 possibly the most succsesful Cross-Genre ever created, System Shock 2 (FPS/RPG), Grim Fandango (Adventure/Puzzle), Sanitarium (adventure/puzzle/3d person view), Homeworld (Space Sim/Strategy). I knwo these are not all RPGS but They are all succesful Cross-Genres and there are a lot of other too. Until next time

Skynet Security Systems Logging off....
 
It seems to me that the best analogy to be made on this topic is:
FO:BoS is to Fallout as Rage Wars was to Turok.

I enjoyed the Turok games becuase of the theme, atmosphere, and the vast worlds to explore(and ofcoarse the ass loads of bloodshed, really whats a shooter with out the blood?)Rage Wars, although it had the same characters, weapons, and blood was not of the same caliber as the other Turok games. The freedom was lost. The plot, which did tie in with the Turok series, was reduced to alomst nothing.
The single player trials are the greatest similarity that I can see. In RW there was a path that you had to take to get to the end of the trial but there were also optional battles that you could choose to do. That sounds, to me, exactly like FO:BoS's 18 optional missions. I doubt that fighting mutants on an optional board can be that much different than fighting mutants on a must-do board.
Another thought.
If you are going to get FO:BoS becuase of the teams, vehicals, and the fighting(the whole idea behind the game)then why don't you just start-up FO2 get a couple of NPCs, the Highwayman, and hang out around the the Military Base?
Again that relates to the Turok analigy. Turok2 had pretty much the same game play as did RW. It was called multiplayer.
And yet another thought.
If RW had different skins and didn't have the Turok title, would anyone have been able to tell that it was even remotely related to Turok? No.
It's the same deal with FO:BoS. Try this. Lets change the characters from BoS soldiers to South Park characters and instead of fighting giant supermutants they fight giant mutant turkeys. We could even call it SP:BoS (South Park: Bunch o' Shit). Now what is left in the game that makes it related to fallout?

FO:BoS is based on two tiny peices of Fallout: a tiny peice of the plot and a single style of fighting. We can judge FO:BoS because we have already played it.

Rage Wars was below Turok's par.
Why will FO:BoS be up to Fallout's par?
-Ranger out.

[div align=center]

http://www.poseidonet.f2s.com/files/nostupid.gif
[/div]
 
>Besides
>there were also good Cross-Genre
>movements Battlezone, Thief 1&2 possibly
>the most succsesful Cross-Genre ever
>created, System Shock 2 (FPS/RPG),
>Grim Fandango (Adventure/Puzzle), Sanitarium (adventure/puzzle/3d
>person view), Homeworld (Space Sim/Strategy).
> I knwo these are
>not all RPGS but They
>are all succesful Cross-Genres and
>there are a lot of
>other too. Until next time


It's obvious you don't know the difference from cross-genre and hybrid.

Please come back when you have been duly informed, because I am tired of pointing out where you constantly have *no* idea of what you are talking about.
 
Ranger: You could replace all the characters in Fallout2 with Southpark characters, and have them untangle the conspiracy behind the mutant turkeys. Would it still be Fallout?
 
[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON May-18-00 AT 04:08PM (GMT)[p]Genre-Type of Class

Cross-One that combines the qualities of two other things

Cross-Genre-A type of class that combines the qualities of two other classes

Hybrid-Something of mixed origin or composition

A cross-genre is a hybrid, becuase a Cross-genre is a thing of mixed origin. And a hybrid (in most cases) is a cross-genre because it combines the qualities of two other things. Now my question is Did you know this? This is from the dictionary and is the correct meaning of all these words.
BTW: Has anynody read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" by Robert Pirsig?
Skynet Security Systems Logging off....
 
RE: Good, Bad, Ugly?

I aggre to in full, everything you say is correct and valid. Actaully I do not belive the game will be good or bad I am neutral I have no opinion about it but am waiting. I would rather not be let down if it is bad.
 
Already played it? really now, how is that why don't you enlighten me.

To answer you question, I don't know why will be up to Fallout's par?


Skynet Security Systems Logging off....
 
>
>Genre-Type of Class
>
>Cross-One that combines the qualities of
>two other things
>
>Cross-Genre-A type of class that combines
>the qualities of two other
>classes
>
>Hybrid-Something of mixed origin or composition
>
>
>A cross-genre is a hybrid, becuase
>a Cross-genre is a thing
>of mixed origin. And a
>hybrid (in most cases) is
>a cross-genre because it combines
>the qualities of two other
>things. Now my question
>is Did you know this?
> This is from the
>dictionary and is the correct
>meaning of all these words.


*shakes his head*

Nope. You are still clueless.
Especially when it comes to games.

Door - a portal allowing access.

Knob - a handle or other manipulating device, usually in a round shape and hard-moulded into the surface, with or without moving parts.

Doorknob - used for opening doors with a torquing motion, but it also means clueless idiot.

See, you miss the multiple or relevent definitions. Or when they are pertaining to a particular subject. I could possibly lay money on the fact that your dictionary doesn't have the word "frag" in it, but it's still a word relevent to gaming.

Cross-genre is when a game originates in one genre, and has derivitive works or crosses over entirely into another genre. In other words, the original is in one genre, and the sequel or derivitive works are in another genre or combination of genres. Even if the sequel goes from RPG to RPG/Tactics, it's still considered cross-genre as it moves from it's origin.

Hybrid is when a game combines more than one genre. A game CAN be a hybrid/cross-genre, but it has to be a sequel to be a cross-genre game.
 
Yes, yes thank you for telling me this. Now then first, I do love Fallout and Fallout 2. Just want to clear this up. and second this is nothing personal just buisness. I am obviously not going to change your mind, and your not going to change mind, but this conversation is interesting and I would like to continue. Now my last question (for now) is, did you like Commandos? and are you going to buy Fallout Tactics? Oh and about the definitions, they are correct, Computer gaming terms are a mutation of language, so technically both terms are correct, you never specified if it should be thje "Computer" definition or the true definition, so I went and got the true one.

Skynet Security Systems Logging off....
 
> Oh and about the
>definitions, they are correct, Computer
>gaming terms are a mutation
>of language, so technically
>both terms are correct, you
>never specified if it should
>be thje "Computer" definition or
>the true definition, so I
>went and got the true
>one.

Well, think about it.
What are we talking about?

Books?

So it might just be a tad obvious that I'm going to use the "computer gaming" (not just "computer") definition.
 
<< Now my last question (for now) is, did you like Commandos? and are you going to buy Fallout Tactics? >>

Isn't that two questions? Anyways, I'll answer them (even though they weren't aimed at me).

Did I like Commandos? Nope, it was much to: find the right block for the hole. The missions were set up with only one way to accomplish them. There wasn't enough flexibility. This tends to annoy me, and annoyance it's a good quality for a game.

Am I going to buy FT? Undecided. I'll wait for the reviews, then make my decision based upon that. I can't see buying it because it's Fallout. That would be like buying a slew of bad Star Wars games because I liked Tie Fighter.

Skie
 
Yes, I know. Listen, all that i'm saying is give peace a chance....no wait thats not right. HMMMM... ah yes, all the I'm saying is lets give this game a chance to prove itself. Is that unreasonable?


Skynet Security Systems "The final word in security" Logging off....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top