Enclave - inaccuracies

[Languorous_Maiar]

I wanna hear yours opinions about Enclave and some weird facts..

1. Oil Rig/Population

Chris Thomas: I was just wondering how many people were part of the Enclave. How many lived out on the Poseidon Oil Rig and were there others at different locations around the planet/continent? Thanks.
Chris A.: There were 60-80 people stationed on the Poseidon Oil Rig, and yes, there were/are other remnants of the federal government scattered across the planet and the continent, but as to whether they were affiliated with the Enclave is unknown.

Curling (in game dialog) - "It's not pretty. You should leave as soon as possible. But I'd rather have the weight of a thousand on my conscience than several hundred-thousand."

What is the truth? I have debate with some guy, and he said that Curling only thrown some random number, like number about population in wasteland. However, on other hand, he also didn't agre with Chris Avellone and said that he make mistake, because Enclave has really small manpower.

My explanation? 60-80 people of Oil Rig are only permanent (goverment, their families and guards) like those 1 thousand were temporary.

Evidence:

"Richardson: You could try, I suppose, but soon the staff of the Enclave and Navarro will be inoculated."

Around 2242 every Enclave guy from every outpost came to Oil Rig to be inoculated, you know, FEV project.

Opinions?

2. Locals (most important)

Timeline and every text from game suggest Enclave start their activity in 2235, in the year when their scouts discovered Mariposa. However, Cook from Navarro mentions locals Enclave people

Cook:"I'm surprised ya don't know, ya must be a local, I guess. Anyway, main base's in the middle of the goddamned ocean. Well, not smack ass in the middle, but it might as well be. Only way to get there is by ship or vertibird and the damn ship's been tinkered with. Ya need a fob to operate the damn thing."

This indicate there are Enclave people who weren't never in Oil Rig, how it that possible?

Second evidence is Ron Meyers, deserter, now captain.
When Chosen One asked about Oil Rig.

A. Ron Meyers.: "Beats me. I was a Navarro tech, not a rig operator. We talked to them over the comm lines, and that was about the extent of it."

But they are around 30-40 yers old. I see no excuse.

Opinions?

3. Population

Small manpower, but how small? If they were been under 1k, they should have problem with inbreeding. Also, after kab00m in Oil Rig, they have a plenty of people in East Coast.

What do you think about number of people in Enclave? (Before end of Oil Rig of course).

4. Outpost

AHS-9 - The Enclave are a remnant of the past - a neurodyne that has yet to be aligned. They have hidden bases all over the shards of old California, and their strongest stronghold is off to the west, over the waters.

Fallout Bible 6 - Dr. Henry used to work with the Enclave cyber-genetic research program at the Poseidon oil rig and at various other Enclave installations.

Fallout Bible 6 - (...) told Henry he was going to recommend that Henry be transferred to another Enclave facility where he would be put to work on cybernetic maintenance (the equivalent of cybernetic janitorial duty).

They had a lot of outpost, but in 2241 their only used Navarro and Oil Rig. (dialogue with Comm. Officer in Gecko Power Plant and Richardson indicate that)

During the countdown Autumn senior take as many people as he can from Enclave using Vertibirds, he was so moron, and he even didn't got this guys from Navarro. However, remnants from Navarro staying in place allowing base prospered for many years. But they used other outposts? It's seems like they stayed forever in Navarro and just waiting for NCR to finish them. However, it's obvious that NCR didn't find those outposts (lack of high tech in 2281). I am interested in the future of those bases.

 

[Izual]

1. I think Curling says "thousand" only to be able to say after "hundreds of thousands". It wouldn't have the same impact if he was saying "dozens instead of hundreds of thousands". We can also imagine there was more than 90 persons on the oil rig, as you said, and that Curling wasn't really aware of the exact amount. And yes, I think Avellone thrown some random number, a realistic one maybe, but not the one that was in the mind of the Oil Rig dialog writers.

2. I don't really understand the issue there, it seems logical to me that new recruits or low-rank techs can never be brought to the Oil Rig.

3. East Coast Enclave is bullshit and I don't consider it canon. :p

4. Abandoned bases? Maybe cut-content like the Rangers' safehouse.

That was a good read though. Good points

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

2. I don't really understand the issue there, it seems logical to me that new recruits or low-rank techs can never be brought to the Oil Rig.

Timeline and every text suggest Enclave left Oil Rig first time some time before 2235. (that's why they didn't know about supermutants, ghouls etc. in past). But it isn't possible, because as you said, they had recruits from mainlands.

Timeline:

2077 March - Prepared for a nuclear or biological attack from China, the President and the Enclave retreat to the Poseidon oil rig and make contingency plans for continuing the war.

2236 July 20 - Enclave scouts discover the remains of the Mariposa Military Base and find it partially destroyed.

Fallout Bible 0, Chris Avellone

Still, the existence of the Mariposa Military Base was listed in Enclave records, and this enabled the Enclave to find the base and begin their excavations, so it is possible that some elements of the Pre-War Enclave had their fingers in the horrors taking place at Mariposa.

In 2077 all Enclave was only in Oil-Rig.
Mariposa was imporant in Enclave records.
Scouts discover Mariposa in 2235. (what they should do as fast, as they can after leaving Oil-Rig according to "and this enabled the Enclave to find the base and begin their excavations,")
Mariposa is near to the Enclave and it wasn't some random discovery.
Enclave decided to start The Project after noticing all that mutants.
Obvious that Enclave was only around 10 (maybe more, 10 years is only confirmed date) years in mainland, but they had people born in mainland, who weren't so young.
The earliest possible date of leaving Oil-Rig can be 2220, year of creating power armor mk2, with enough radiation resistance to scouting mainalnd, but it's also too late for many locals recruits.

4. Abandoned bases? Maybe cut-content like the Rangers' safehouse.

Obsidian forget about them, without even mentioning that many people from Obsidian actually created Fallout 2. Why Enclave remnants from California didn't retreat to some hidden outpost? But they just stay in Navarro, with the knowledge of destroyed Oil Rig. BoS and Arroyo Tribals knew where Navarro is located. If not after Oil Rig fall, they should retreat after NCR denounced the war. But wait, even after fall of Navarro those Enclave guys from Mojave decided to go here and live without luxuries, instead of hidding in some outpost. Cannibal Johnson lived in cave! when he was able to choose some abandoned Enclave base. Really?

Thanks.

 

[Hassknecht]

I think the Remnant's bunker in New Vegas was not exactly fit for living in for an extended period of time. As far as I can see it was just a hidden refueling station for Vertibirds.
The Remnants could have set up a basecamp there, but many of them were not exactly happy with the Enclave, and getting caught in an Enclave bunker was not exactly a good idea right after the fall of the Enclave.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

But I mean some outpost in California, from locals recruits come to Navarro, not some vertibird refueling station.

Chris from Navarro dialogue:

Wait a minute. Are you trying to say you're one of the Enclave replacements?

Damn. Sorry for the hassles. I'm supposed to clear a bunch of newbies
coming through here but I got to weed out the trash. Anyway, just go up to the gate,
through the woods there, and give 'em the password. It's 'sheepshead.' Oh, and stay on the path!

Those outpost were created to live in them, ba, even to "work on cybernetic maintenance" in them.

 

[Mameluk]

1. I'd say more people live at the Oil Rig and, if there's no such theory already, I always imagined it to consist of two parts: above water, where offices, laboratories, soldier quarters and president room were and below water, where the living quarters and supplies were held (it's pretty possible Enclave bred some livestock or plants via artifical light). If so, that would explain why the Oil Rig is densely populated and basically self-sufficient.
2. It might be possible Enclave considered Navarro to be only a military outpost, while the Oil Rig was somewhat civilian location (like a capitol of a state) and the organization's core, so that's why they recruited locals to serve at Navarro and not at the Rig. Might as well dispose of them when they were not needed via FEV.
3. Apart from what I said in point 1, there are still rumours of their base in Chicago. Assuming Enclave tried to do everything to survive the Great War and see the world after, it's logical they established more outposts. If I recall correctly, in Lonesome Road ED-E turns on a dialogue which indicate his constructor got an order from Autumn to destroy it. And in previous dialogue the Courier can get an information about some Enclave's base in Chicago. Now however I'm not sure whether Autumn was giving this order while still stationed at Navarro or not (also if it was senior or our favourite colonel)... Nevertheless, if we assume there was also a base in Chicago, then that would explain why there's so much of Enclave's presence in East Coast.
4. No response here, just a hopeful wish there are other bases, but they're either inactive, ruined or inhabited by 5 to 10 former members. Let the Enclave die with dignity, developers.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

2. Man, I had a debate with said same things, but my counter-argument.

Cook treat him like pure human, not some non-pure human.

Quotes:

Cook:

Son, I can tell from the smell that you're not wearin' one of them powered armor suits. If the sarge sees you out of uniform you're screwed. And I ain't talking the type of screwing that feels good. Now get your ass down to supply and suit up.

Enclave never will give some power armor mk2, to local non-pure humans due to their value. Dornan words show this cleary.

Dornan:

Don't have any? You expect me to believe that, maggot? The truth is you lost an expensive piece of army-issue equipment. That suit is going to come out of your pay, and you will remain in this mans army until you are five hundred and ten years old, which is the number of years it will take for you to pay for a Mark II Powered Combat Armor you have lost! Report to the armory and have a new suit issued to you, then report back to me, private! Dismissed!

4. Agreed. All Enclave personel will die out due to age, but still, it's about lack of mentions of those bases in F:NV, because cybernetic stuff and all new inventionson on which Enclave worked is rather valuable. But if bases just haven't been found, it indicate they are well hidden, and personel of Navarro should use them, not that well known base.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

This is actually an interesting topic, I was worried at first it would devolve into the usual Fallout 2 Enclave vs the Fallout 3 Enclave but you (the OP) bring up some very important points.

Also nice that you managed to get some info from one of the guys who worked on the game for an in-house point of view.

Its sometimes very unclear how many bases the Enclave had as it switches from the Poseidon Oil Rig and Navarro (and Raven Rock), to these places and several more including colonies.


When the number of a thousand was brought up I was thinking of the civilians and military personnel on the rig, on the levels of the complex we did not get to see. (but please don't bring up the idea of some underwater colony as that reminds me to much of a rather average Enclave source book) plus several hundred on the mainland (most soldiers, scientists and engineers).

With the destruction of the rig I thought that would also be the end of the Enclave in general, not just because their government was located along with their major production and research facilities but also their entire civilian population. (like hell the Enclave on the mainland would 'reproduce' with wastelanders).
As a result the remaining Enclave would slowly collapse as they don't produce the numbers that needed to replace those fallen from injuries, disease, or old age (unless they find a still sealed Vault or something)


I would like to hear some more about the other Enclave outposts in the wasteland in future games but not so much as them still being active and manned, doing all kinds of nefarious projects and such crap.

We also know from Sawyer's RPG campaign that the Enclave also use surviving laboratories and other facilities from Pre War corporations such as Poseidon Energy as bases.

I do think eventually the entire Enclave will collapse or be forced to change in such a way that it no longer resembles the original organization.
This is definitely most likely as the holders of its legacy (President Richardson and his government) are dead and most likely would not pas anything on to any of those they would consider 'beneath' them.
So nothing remains of the old bastards before the war who managed to ride it out in safety.

 

[Sub-Human]

And how is the Enclave exactly associated with the Power Plant north of Vault City? There was a fully operational PoseidoNet terminal, with the ability to contact the Enclave. Does this mean the pre-War government planned to deploy troops there? Maybe the Enclave itself wanted to make that its outpost?

 

[Hassknecht]

And how is the Enclave exactly associated with the Power Plant north of Vault City? There was a fully operational PoseidoNet terminal, with the ability to contact the Enclave. Does this mean the pre-War government planned to deploy troops there? Maybe the Enclave itself wanted to make that its outpost?

The Oil Rig and the plant were both built by Poseidon Energy, the communication terminal was a relict from before the War. Sort of like an Intranet for the company.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The Enclave also adopted and re-purposed holdings and infrastructures of the Pre War corporations such Poseidonet and other facilities.

In time they would probably have reclaimed resources like the Gecko power plant and probably HELIOS One in the Mojave but it was probably not a priority back then.

The leaders of the Enclave probably thought wastelanders lacked the know how and the resources to make use of these facilities again.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Some rich bastards from Poseidon Energy were part of Enclave btw.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Some rich bastards from Poseidon Energy were part of Enclave btw.

That probably too but we know from the Fallout bibles that various corporations did business with the Enclave for defence contracts.

Part of the deal was that holdings of theirs were protected during the nuclear fire storm which the remnants of the Enclave later used after the destruction of the oil rig.

 

[SnapSlav]

There are some inaccuracies, but the subject of the Enclave (until you bring up FO3) is actually rather consistent.

Quite simply, the Enclave was, whether through emigration or reclamation, "begun" on the Oil Rig. That's where their civilian population was housed, where their chain of command and leadership was located, where all of it really originated from. There were many other bases, even in FO2, but beside the Oil Rig, Navarro was the BIGGEST (and, incidentally, also the newest), thus why it seemed like the Enclave only ever had 2 bases.

The other bases are never touched on, so it can go any way you please as to what they really were. Were there "loyal" troops and/or their descendants stationed at these bases/bunkers who were eventually re-absorbed "into the fold" when the Enclave became more active? Were these other bases boogeyman locations where you would send your unwanted to die? Where these other bases physical places that, totally unbeknownst to the Enclave itself, were actually devoid of any life that they still treated, on record, as fully-staffed? They could be anything, really. All we knew for certain were that these bases, as places, existed.

The Enclave recruited from the wasteland. This was never a big deal, nor a confusing matter, nor a subject of debate, but it certainly could demand some further illumination. Yes, they're major xenophobes, but they're also ludicrous hypocrites, too. They denounce wasters as sub-human mutants, yet they draw all their fresh recruits from them. Because of the eventual uniformity of the organization (thanks almost entirely due to the rank-and-file identical Advanced Power Armor suits), once you were recruited and indoctrinated into the Enclave, your origins didn't matter anymore. You were now a faceless soldier of the good 'ol U-S-of-A (supposedly) so being a member of the Enclave while having a local background is something that's entirely forgotten, even by those who lived it.

Dornan was a drill instructor, and they're renowned for being stunningly full of shit. They're pompous, heavy-winded, CONFIDENT bastards that spew whatever they like all for the efforts of breaking the minds of their subordinates. What Dornan said was not to be taken seriously (the 510 years of labor should be an obvious clue as to how full of shit he is), so his account of how Advanced Power Armor was distributed was nothing more than intimidation. With new recruits this means they HAD to "give" them to others; it just had to be done.

The highly-staff, enormous and youthful army of the East Coast Enclave (and many, many other errors) are all subject to the same poor storytelling mistakes made by Bethesda, just like they did with the Brotherhood. In both cases, we see HUNDREDS of soldiers, far too young and too numerous to be possible, given both of their circumstances. They were never explained, except they expected that "They came with us from the West Coast" was to be accepted as a viable answer.

Inbreeding and birth defects as a result are also largely a myth (though I wish I could quickly link to the source statements I got that from, since that's a very unpopular line of thought that many would undoubtedly demand backing up); they just don't happen. Realistically, populations simply dwindle under various circumstances (such as prolonged isolation and limited food supply) or even boom for completely unrelated reasons ("Been at war, surrounded by men, and facing death for the past 5 years...... man my wife looks scrumptious!") and limited biodiversity itself is really the one "sacrifice" from inbreeding. But for a species that retrofits its surroundings rather than fits in with them, like humans, this is a non-issue. So while many faces might begin to look eerily similar (and they pointed this out with Vault City, as well), as a population, the Enclave could have continued to go on for many many generations, without any contact from the outside world. How do you think real-world tribes with tiny populations that are cut off from outsiders continue to exist after hundreds (if not thousands) of years on their own, even today?

Anywho, all fairly consistent, but it's important to point out what discrepancies there may be, ESPECIALLY for use in critiquing future content.....

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Other bases in 2242 are empty, every man/woman of the Enclave must go to Navarro/Oil Rig for inoculating.

@The Enclave recruited from the wasteland.

It's rather totaly untrue and against all policies, ideals and behavior of Enclave. Evidence? Other quote from the game with Tagaziel's () words touching Enclave/Wastelanders cooperation.

Richardson and the entire Enclave are convinced due to some pseudo-scientific neo-nazi bullshit theorem, that only they represent humanity and everyone else on the entire planet were mutants slated for extermination. And they do it with full knowledge of the situation of the mainland, as evident by their participation in trade with New Reno, slave runs to Redding, excavation efforts, Horrigan's missions etc.

In short, the Enclave is absolutely, unambiguously evil, bent on killing everyone outside of their own, small coterie. Worse yet, Richardson automatically rejects any possible cooperation based on the Enclave's racial doctrine:

Richardson:
Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here.

Destroying the Enclave was absolutely essential to preventing worldwide genocide and utter destruction of humanity. The same is said by Charles Curling, who outright states that only wiping out the Enclave is going to stop them from attempting the same plan again.

It's like fascist germany workings with Judes, giving them theirs tanks and other weapons.

@Inbreeding
It was only my argument for Enclave having more than 1k people. Look what happens to Habsburg, when it comes to inbreeding. For me Enclave would be in danger only if they were under 1k like many people keep saying, but I thinks they weren't so small.

 

[SnapSlav]

It's rather totaly untrue and against all policies, ideals and behavior of Enclave. Evidence? Other quote from the game with Tagaziel's () words touching Enclave/Wastelanders cooperation.

Richardson and the entire Enclave are convinced due to some pseudo-scientific neo-nazi bullshit theorem, that only they represent humanity and everyone else on the entire planet were mutants slated for extermination. And they do it with full knowledge of the situation of the mainland, as evident by their participation in trade with New Reno, slave runs to Redding, excavation efforts, Horrigan's missions etc.

In short, the Enclave is absolutely, unambiguously evil, bent on killing everyone outside of their own, small coterie. Worse yet, Richardson automatically rejects any possible cooperation based on the Enclave's racial doctrine:

Richardson:
Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here.

Destroying the Enclave was absolutely essential to preventing worldwide genocide and utter destruction of humanity. The same is said by Charles Curling, who outright states that only wiping out the Enclave is going to stop them from attempting the same plan again.

I did touch on that, though. They ARE hypocrites. They're not JUST sociopaths. They're not JUST elitist bigots. They're not JUST many, many horrible things. They're also self-contradictory hypocrites. Thus how they can parade around in their self-absorbed higher-than-everyone-else racial supremacy while still "hiring out" to those allegedly inferior races. Doing so may go against their "ideals", but the Enclave were never a group of solidarity or integrity to begin with.

And as far as population SIZE is concerned, again, I addressed that various circumstances affect it. If a population is zealous enough with procreating (and all accounts point that the Enclave were VERY much that) then they will have bustling numbers with almost no limitations; not even food supply. They might be malnourished, possibly even cannibalistic, but they'd have the numbers... In fact, this is HOW humanity got by for thousands of years until medical advances practically guaranteed long lifespans and infant survival; keep having kids in the hopes that 1 out of every 10 make it to adulthood! But, as pointed out by others, CLEARLY to have sustained themselves at all for over 100 years, the Enclave likely had some levels on the Oil Rig used to produce their food supplies.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Richardson:

We try to keep ourselves safe and secure from radiation. That's what separates humans - like me - from mutants like you.

The only way for true humans, and democracy, to be safe is to cleanse the mutants from the globe. We humans will take back that which is rightfully ours.

We've run short of certain critical chemicals. We can get them from the drug labs of New Reno. If the mutant-mobsters use our guns to kill each other, just saves us the trouble

Very possible, indeed. In which case, our mission is even more vital to the survival of the human race.

I assure you, I'm quite sane, as is everyone on the Project. We're dedicated to the salvation of the human race. You can call single-minded dedication to a cause madness, I suppose, but if so, it's divine madness.

It isn't enough for you?
If not, just explain me something.
Richardson called every non-total-pure human "mutant", "muties", "mutant mobster" etc. and Enclave as "human race" etc.
Cookie on other hand, could call some "mutant" a "son" or "my friend.", + sharing technology with them which theirs totally hates for muties?
I don't get this.

 

[SnapSlav]

I'm genuinely dumbfounded that you can't seem to grasp what "hypocrisy" entails. It explains ITSELF... There is no explaining that if you don't understand what it means already.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Eh, its pretty much established in Fallout 2 that the Enclave doesn't recruit people from the wasteland.

They use them as mercenaries perhaps and buy stuff such as chemicals from them, even enslaving humans for their own projects and research but that is the extend of it.

 

[Mistrz]

Even if they do recruit wastelanders they are not inoculating them nor let them get to oil rig. They need muscels but they don`t give a shit about their future.


On the other hand problem with inbreeding would occure sooner or later, but it`s inevitable in very small population.