Fallout 3 is overrated

[lugaru]

What is the middle between "NMA's stance" (if that's a real thing) and stupid fanboyism? Slighly stupid slight fanboyism?

My opinion is that it is better than many other games that came out that year, although not a classic in the larger scheme of things. If I did NOT enjoy the game I would not be on this forum, I havent played the original fallout games in years so I barely feel a need to opine on them and when I don’t like something get over it very quickly.

So I'll enjoy Fallout 3, mod it a bit, I am working with some people to bring Tribals and other cool stuff back into the game. But I’m not about to write people who do negative reviews nor act like I know more than people who do positive ones. And I’m certainly not part of the fan fiction I see going on where people love to guess what is in the minds of creators, assuming that anyone who worked on fallout has secret revenge fantasies against Bethesda.

But this is the internet, people like to act real dramatic on them. Some love things in ways that are embarrassing, some hate things in ways that are laughable. And some have real opinions.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So if I got you right you dont base your oppinion about Fallout 3 on the known Fallout games?

My opinion is that it is better than many other games that came out that year, although not a classic in the larger scheme of things. If I did NOT enjoy the game I would not be on this forum, I havent played the original fallout games in years so I barely feel a need to opine on them and when I don’t like something get over it very quickly.

Then why the need to give Fallout 3 the name of Fallout, which brings one to the same old questsions. You will find many here that will tell you they found some nice things in F3. Its a game after all designed to have some fun. The design of the game isnt that bad and hits often enough a real part of Fallout. As quite some said "Fallout 3 has its moments" Though NMA is a community largely based around Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. If they would not rate (on a individual level) Fallout 3 with thinking about Fallout 1 and 2, what is the sense of talking about it? Why give it the name Fallout 3. Bethesda explained they wanted to make a suequel to the past games. This might not mean much for most people, but here in NMA it has for many a meaning you can be sure that there would have been a lot less dispute about the game if it would have been sold as "Spinoff" game. Though there are enough people which liked all 3 games. Even here and see it as "true" Sequel. Those dont get right out baned. But since they are in a minority here its somewhat obvious that such oppinions will have to be defend here quite often, which can be tedious, thus they dont post all the time. Well not in the F3 section.

But this is the internet, people like to act real dramatic on them. Some love things in ways that are embarrassing, some hate things in ways that are laughable. And some have real opinions.

Some people act that way in real as well. They might be not that offensive, but everyone can be pretty defensive if you hit his right spot. May it be films or anything else. I know enough people that take Judo dead serious and get very anal about certain things which makes only sense if you know the sport well. I would not say it does mean people are always dramatic.

 

[Dionysus]

Noordzij (the author) is being imprecise in his language. What he intended to say was that the plot was good but the writing/storytelling/execution.

Here on NMA, we focus a lot on the latter - it was ear-blisteringly awful, after all - but we focus on it so much that it's easy to miss the fact that the plot could have been epic.

Naw, the plot was pretty bad. I found it to be unoffensive until Raven Rock, when the whole thing totally fell apart. It wasn't good up to that point, but it became a demonstrably bad RPG plot at Raven Rock.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Naw, the plot was pretty bad. I found it to be unoffensive until Raven Rock, when the whole thing totally fell apart. It wasn't good up to that point, but it became a demonstrably bad RPG plot at Raven Rock.

I wouldn't say that it was conceptually (thinking skeletal/wireframe here) good or bad, simply workable. It could clearly use improvements and it could clearly be more nonsensical. That said, the details were bad to terrible with bad writing so regardless of how much potential the base may have had, it ended up bad.

 

[Dionysus]

I wouldn't say that it was conceptually (thinking skeletal/wireframe here) good or bad, simply workable. It could clearly use improvements and it could clearly be more nonsensical. That said, the details were bad to terrible with bad writing so regardless of how much potential the base may have had, it ended up bad.

No, the plot was fundamentally broken at the end. There are a lot of games with uninspired writing, but workable plotlines, and there are even games with decent writing, but stupid plotlines (like Mask of the Betrayer). Fallout 3 really doesn't work well in either respect. They throw in the cliched "character gets captured" plot point. They neutered the big bad before the climax, which made it exceptionally anticlimactic. They threw in a completely meaningless and nonsensical choice point at the end. It wasn't just a matter execution. You would need to overhaul the plot in order to make it workable.

 

[cronicler]

F3's plot was: Save the scientist who has made a machine that will create total good for the world and stop evil faction from controlling the machine for their own use.
Cliche? Absolutely. But it is not much different from HL2. And HL2 shows us that even a cliche plot can be made a good game.

B.Soft's problem is the lack of intercommunication in their development. A bunch of guys create this cool stuff and other bunch create that cool stuff and then they paste it onto the same map at the end. Since the parts don't mesh beyond a basic level, its "Immershun" breaking.

That said, the game could be overhauled like the Oblivion to crate a total and good fallout experience. Will anyone do it? Very improbable as B. has shown that they will steal your work (as it is a mod and can be considered open source for them) and/or profit from your work.

Oblivion Overhaul Notes: First you disable the main questline. Then you add improved magic and combat and travel and crafting and Ai mods. Then you can add the scenarios/quests of your liking. Do not forget to add new cities like Unburned Kwatch, Extended City mods and some other little villages. The game becomes a real gaming experience after these but... paying beth cash to access their engine and disabling the main quest is really ironic isn't it?

 

[Crni Vuk]

well Beth should kiss the feet of their modding community as they are it that sell their games really in my eyes. All the patches, fixes, and moods to improve gameplay which some (even when a few people ... which name I dont name now dont accept that) have the quality of professional content.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Basically, I'm talking about people that feel like they are no longer part of the industry. Games aren't being made for them and the press isn't talking to them. These people often blame the publishers and the press even though the gamers have the most influence over the direction of the industry.

Speaking for myself, I have no qualm with any developer or any publisher making any game, whether or not it happens to be my cup of tea. I do have a problem with Zenimax and Bethesda taking Fallout - a franchise generally acknowledged to be one of the best ever - and mutilating it for their own ends, and then misrepresenting their mutilation as a "true sequel." And I also have a problem with people who don't care that it's happened. It's an issue of artistic integrity.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I rarely see someone geting attacked just for his "oppinion" here though. And those that do get also sometimes a warning.

But when people already start with "Fallout 3 is the best that has ever happend to the franchise, how can you gys NOT see that?" well that isn't really the best way to start explaining your oppinion and WHY they think it is best that could happen.

If someone has the oppinion that Fallout 3 is a great game, then there is no need to explain that oppinion or to defend it. Just as no one ever needs really to explain why he prefers chocolate ice over strawberry ice cream.

 

[Dionysus]

F3's plot was: Save the scientist who has made a machine that will create total good for the world and stop evil faction from controlling the machine for their own use.
Cliche? Absolutely. But it is not much different from HL2. And HL2 shows us that even a cliche plot can be made a good game.

Ignoring the G-Man, Half Life 2 had a generic plot, but it wasn't bad. In FO3, they basically got rid of the main antagonist before the end of the game. Autumn wasn't a serious threat to the wasteland. He explicitly didn't want to kill everyone because he thought it was wrong.

well Beth should kiss the feet of their modding community as they are it that sell their games really in my eyes.

No. They sell more games on the consoles than PC.

Also, it's not coincidental that Morrowind had a much bigger mod community than Daggerfall. The mod community wouldn't be very robust without dev support.

 

[lugaru]

I think what works for Half Life 2 is that yes, it has a very simple plot but it does not tell the player what the plot is. You are trying to get from point A to point B to defeat somebody and save innocent people, but there is a nice sense of ambiguity because the world is not largely defined. Portal was even better at this "less is more" because they dont tell you when things are happening or what is going on in the world in the beggining. You go in and start asking yourself questiosn as to what is on the other side of this wall or that mirror or who is looking at me through the cameras. That is why I hate RPG's with a thick book detailing the world, I rather be a peasant who only knows what is beyond his village due to in game whispers and peering out. Eventually you will learn everything you need to know, so a 10 minute world creation video is unecesary.

Bringing that to Fallout they have always done a good job of showing you a video that has more flavor than history at the beggining, so you kind of know what is going on but you know for sure that things have gone wrong. That's why executions are a prominent theme in them including Fallout 3. I think Fallout 3 did a good job of telling it's story until people start jumping out of their seat begging to tell you about your dad and about his research. "Have you seen my father?" "Yeah, he went that way. Now that I've got your attention though let me tell you his entire biography and analysis of his motivations less you not figure that out on your own..."

 

[Holocausto]

I think what works for Half Life 2 is that yes, it has a very simple plot but it does not tell the player what the plot is. You are trying to get from point A to point B to defeat somebody and save innocent people, but there is a nice sense of ambiguity because the world is not largely defined. Portal was even better at this "less is more" because they dont tell you when things are happening or what is going on in the world in the beggining. You go in and start asking yourself questiosn as to what is on the other side of this wall or that mirror or who is looking at me through the cameras. That is why I hate RPG's with a thick book detailing the world, I rather be a peasant who only knows what is beyond his village due to in game whispers and peering out. Eventually you will learn everything you need to know, so a 10 minute world creation video is unecesary.

Bringing that to Fallout they have always done a good job of showing you a video that has more flavor than history at the beggining, so you kind of know what is going on but you know for sure that things have gone wrong. That's why executions are a prominent theme in them including Fallout 3. I think Fallout 3 did a good job of telling it's story until people start jumping out of their seat begging to tell you about your dad and about his research. "Have you seen my father?" "Yeah, he went that way. Now that I've got your attention though let me tell you his entire biography and analysis of his motivations less you not figure that out on your own..."

F3 has a fantastic story, writing, quests etc. I find them enthralling. Daddy trying to get the purifier to work, running around the wasteland (invulnerable at that...ELEGANT solution as always beth, so so well done/thought out). Enclave who don't show up till you trigger them later in the game (usually by the time you can stomp them like insects....wouldn't want lil kiddz to face hard baddies....it might "frustrate" them you know). The "hero" complex where you are essentially the only one who knows how to get shit done (pretty much everybody else are hapless idiots/retards waiting to be "saved") More elegance...That is such a "mature" premise indeed. You are not just another schlub in the apocalypse existing amongst many others on their own paths/quests you are THE ONE! THE NEE-O! I really enjoy the feeling of feeling like the game and it's progression/ interactions hinges on me....I feel so important! The great changer of the wastes. F3 is truly impressive.... No doubt about it.

 

[lugaru]

I think you and I are actually having different conversations, and I am under the possibly mistaken impression that the one I’m in is a lot smarter. Mine is about how story is delivered in games, and how too much exposition can ruin immersion. You seem to be parroting some stuff that other people have said about Fallout 3 (and pretty much any other game) in a poor semblance of either irony or sarcasm, it is hard to tell. You think level progression and pacing challenges is bad storytelling? I would be glad to have a real discussion about that if you are in the mood.

 

[Holocausto]

I think you and I are actually having different conversations, and I am under the possibly mistaken impression that the one I’m in is a lot smarter. Mine is about how story is delivered in games, and how too much exposition can ruin immersion.

My conversation is about how your argument only applies if there is something interesting underneath to possibly be ruined by excessive exposition.

 

[Crni Vuk]

well Beth should kiss the feet of their modding community as they are it that sell their games really in my eyes.

No. They sell more games on the consoles than PC.

Also, it's not coincidental that Morrowind had a much bigger mod community than Daggerfall. The mod community wouldn't be very robust without dev support.

Which "dev" support you are talking about ? There is no real support by Bethesda to their mod community.

 

[cronicler]

Dionysus: The general plot of FO3 is adequate. I don't think you have played fallouts 1 and 2 seriously thou.

Fallout 3's story is basically copied over from the first two games. B. took that faction and this faction and transported them some 100 years into the future and other coast then gave us a mix of the old stores.

This alone is not that bad. However their way of telling the story is also very inept. You are force fed the story every time you turn your head around. The bad guys and the plot just goes on without "ANY" regard to what you do. Why can't I work for Col. Autumn? Why cant I access the remains of the President after I cause a logic error in him and he basically crashes? I had 100 science and 10 int, I would be able to make something out of that mainframe (An automatic coffee machine. With Vr support. With a Vr Slave Harem. In Arabian nights setting. With foot massage pads too....)

All along the game you are just going on on a railway shooter. Nothing you do changes anything. there is no gray choices. Its just good doggie biscuit and bad doggie no biscuit with bad doggie being given biscuit by the next guy in line.

A lot of people here can enjoy games with stale stories if its told in an adequate way or good story bad storytelling combinations. Stale story and big storytelling errors are what make people angry when every so called reviewer goes "Oh mu gosh! what a creative story"...

A personal suggestion; try www.baen.com to get to their free libary and look up some John Ringo titles. Most of his stories are "testesterone treatments for the big boys", "highly jarring to sensibilities" and various other bad adjectives. Still that guy can write his stories in such a way that you need to read the next page even when you are disgusted with your self.

That is food storytelling. Not FO3

 

[jero cvmi]

Why can't I work for Col. Autumn? Why cant I access the remains of the President after I cause a logic error in him and he basically crashes? I had 100 science and 10 int, I would be able to make something out of that mainframe

because b. know better.

 

[Dionysus]

Which "dev" support you are talking about ? There is no real support by Bethesda to their mod community.

I think this is fairly clear. Beth’s mod community grew substantially when they started to release mod tools.

Dionysus: The general plot of FO3 is adequate. I don't think you have played fallouts 1 and 2 seriously thou.

I don’t think you know what a “plot” is. Seriously. The plot includes the entire sequence of events. It’s not just “Save the scientist who has made a machine that will create total good for the world and stop evil faction from controlling the machine for their own use.” Fallout 1&2 don’t have good plots, but they don’t have awful plots. FO3 has an awful plot. It has serious issues that couldn’t be fixed without changing the plot. A magical one-use weapon that incapacitates the PC is bad plotting. It creates a plot hole (why didn’t Autumn use this to stop the PC in Raven Rock?). Allowing the PC to talk Eden to death is bad plotting. No amount of good dialog could fix that. A plot device is MIA. Getting rid of the big bad before the final battle is bad plotting. You are forced to fight against an antagonist that isn’t very antagonizing. Forcing an inverted Deus Ex Machina at the end is bad plotting, especially when the PC could be accompanied by an NPC that could easily diffuse the stupid crisis point with no harm. In fact, there’s a good chance that the PC will have a partner that could save the day without any problem (there are three of them that I know of).

 

[cronicler]

Ok ok bad choice of words. It should have been scenario, sorry. I was trying to say that the general back story is no better or worse than your average game. just stale as it was recycled from Fo1 and Fo2.
The total ineptness of B.soft telling the story and making the "moments" of the game into idiotic, umplausable (sp?) and totally holywood ripoffs killed the game.

Could have endured with crappy 3-D movement, stage like villages that just exist to base quests for you, unbalanced combat, general logic errors... Man what a load of problems. And this game is given Goty by 90%+ of the gaming media...

 

[lugaru]

That was my main problem, with the game. While I’m not “illiterate” I just hate exposure via dialog trees. I don’t always skip dialog, when a character has a something that makes them interesting or when you are being told a good story then I’m hooked, but several moments in the main plot involved these 10 x 10 giant dialog trees with too much information and not enough nuance. And in a sparse game where you spend hours exploring in dead silence, all of a sudden having somebody recite the phone book to you is annoying. This is a very common problem in RPG’s but I don’t remember ever saying “fuck this” in Vampire: Bloodlines. There was some exposure but characters had accents, personalities and quirks that made it interesting. Regarding the plot I’m another one who say’s its middle of the road, better than a whole lot of games, far from the best and even the best video game plot is rarely mind blowing.

One of the video game plots that has really moved me was Silent Hill because it was structured like one of those Choose Your Own Adventure books made for horror readers where every choice changed the nightmare logic plot a little. Also you know what is up, but you never really understand why and all the red herrings insulates the plot from scrutiny. Then again it has horrible dialog that is very poorly voice acted (and puzzles), but again I’m not the type that loudly pronounces everything to be perfect or complete crap.