[PCE]el_Prez
Vault Fossil
Anybody catch the first episode? I liked it a lot. Can't go wrong if it comes from the creators of 'The Wire' (as well as 'Homocide: Life on the street').
Generation Kill
- Thread starter [PCE]el_Prez
- Start date
Vault Fossil
I'm gonna check this out as soon as I can. The previews looked cool. You're right - anything from the guys who made The Wire is going to be gold. I think there are some former OZ cast members in this, too. I distinctly remember seeing Tobias Beecher's face in one of the trailers.
Carib FMJ
Nuka-Cola Chaser
Does anyone remember a series called Over There? Just like Generation Kill, set in the Iraq war time frame.
Over there was pretty good, too bad they canceled it.
I also caught Generation Kill and it's exactly what I expected from the authors of The Wire.
The only thing I don't like about the show is that all the characters are assholes.
Hehehe, gay Rudy is playing himself in the show.
I also caught Generation Kill and it's exactly what I expected from the authors of The Wire.
The only thing I don't like about the show is that all the characters are assholes.
Hehehe, gay Rudy is playing himself in the show.
Just finished the first episode. I love it.
Over There was pretty terrific, this reminds me a lot of that but it's not hampered by melodrama or TV censors. It's still a real shame Over There got canceled. I think people weren't really ready for a show like that at the time.
Over There was pretty terrific, this reminds me a lot of that but it's not hampered by melodrama or TV censors. It's still a real shame Over There got canceled. I think people weren't really ready for a show like that at the time.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
NPR had a long piece on it. Apparently it's based on a non-fiction book of the same title, the writers worked with the original journalist to adapt it to TV. Sounds good.DirtyDreamDesigner said:
welsh
Junkmaster
The book is really quite good- by the Rolling Stones author embedded with the troops. We posted it over here awhile back.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13375&highlight=generation+kill
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/vi...ays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=generation+kill
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13375&highlight=generation+kill
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/vi...ays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=generation+kill
welsh
Junkmaster
Ok, double post- but I am curious- We've had 4 episodes.
What do you guys think?
Me, I am lovin' it. It holds to the book pretty well. I get the same impression from the show as I did from the book- these guys may be the best marines of the bunch, but their officers are a bunch of assholes.
What do you guys think?
Me, I am lovin' it. It holds to the book pretty well. I get the same impression from the show as I did from the book- these guys may be the best marines of the bunch, but their officers are a bunch of assholes.
[PCE]el_Prez
Vault Fossil
Its awesome. Exactly what I expect from creators of 'The Wire'.
[PCE]el_Prez
Vault Fossil
I haven't read the book either - nor do I know how 'realistic' this series is.... but from my observation - Godfather is part of the problem. He's obviously not incompetent, but it seems like his agenda is more geared towards rank advancement as opposed to the well being of the soldiers in his command.Maynard James Keenan said:
Every episode is better and better, and just like The Wire, it takes a while to get to know the characters but it's worth it once you do.
welsh
Junkmaster
The book is great. YOu should check it out. Its more interesting and the characters more compelling.
And yes, I think its quite possible to have officers as dumb, if not dumber, than Encino Man and Capt America.
Don't forget, this is the first time these guys are seeing combat. Perhaps in older wars where the body count was higher, dumb officers would be killed off quickly in combat.
I read a two volume oral history of the Korean War a few years back. I think it was by Knox, Vol 1 and Vol 2 - and came away thinking that for the soldier in combat, its just a matter of timing before one's luck runs out. No matter how good you are, and the more fatigued you become, the less lucky you become.
Therefore, dumber officers are more likely to get themselves and their men killed. Dumb officers would eventualy get replaced by smarter officers (if they didn't get killed as per randomness of death) or another dumb officer.
But if you have a war with a low mortality count, your dumb officers are likely to survive longer and get more soldiers killed. At least until the soldier confronts the officer about their incompetence. Which is what we saw in the last episode.
While ideally an officer's goal should be to accomplish the mission and keep his men alive, at a personal level- his goal is career advancement. Combat is good for an officer's career, and aggressive combat may get your soldiers killed but might build your career.
Given the chance of having a dumb ass as an officer + the chance that you're being sent to fight a bullshit war where you've got a good chance of hitting the wrong person and get killed by dumb bad luck.... I would seriously reconsider going into the military.
Don't get me wrong- I think its a great thing to serve your country. But serving your country doesn't mean taking a chance that some career building fuck ofan officer will get you killed for a war begun on false pretenses.
I also think that the idea that people join the military out of some sense of patriotism or nationalism needs to be re-examined. A lot of folks go because they want to be involved in the spectacle of war, to have an adventure, and maybe (like Trombley) to get to kill someone.
And yes, I think its quite possible to have officers as dumb, if not dumber, than Encino Man and Capt America.
Don't forget, this is the first time these guys are seeing combat. Perhaps in older wars where the body count was higher, dumb officers would be killed off quickly in combat.
I read a two volume oral history of the Korean War a few years back. I think it was by Knox, Vol 1 and Vol 2 - and came away thinking that for the soldier in combat, its just a matter of timing before one's luck runs out. No matter how good you are, and the more fatigued you become, the less lucky you become.
Therefore, dumber officers are more likely to get themselves and their men killed. Dumb officers would eventualy get replaced by smarter officers (if they didn't get killed as per randomness of death) or another dumb officer.
But if you have a war with a low mortality count, your dumb officers are likely to survive longer and get more soldiers killed. At least until the soldier confronts the officer about their incompetence. Which is what we saw in the last episode.
While ideally an officer's goal should be to accomplish the mission and keep his men alive, at a personal level- his goal is career advancement. Combat is good for an officer's career, and aggressive combat may get your soldiers killed but might build your career.
Given the chance of having a dumb ass as an officer + the chance that you're being sent to fight a bullshit war where you've got a good chance of hitting the wrong person and get killed by dumb bad luck.... I would seriously reconsider going into the military.
Don't get me wrong- I think its a great thing to serve your country. But serving your country doesn't mean taking a chance that some career building fuck ofan officer will get you killed for a war begun on false pretenses.
I also think that the idea that people join the military out of some sense of patriotism or nationalism needs to be re-examined. A lot of folks go because they want to be involved in the spectacle of war, to have an adventure, and maybe (like Trombley) to get to kill someone.
No, I don't think so based on the time I've been spending at a recruiters office and recruits coming in(and soldiers coming back from bt). My experience as been that the two biggest draws for them was: Patriotism and money.
And actually except for the patriot rush, money has always been the biggest draw for people. Not that wanting adventure is mutually exclusive, but that most people want to be paid if they risk their lives.
Irony is more people die on the roads of the US than die in Iraq.
That said, I'm going to be fairly pleased with the bonuses I'm going to be getting soon.
(In response to the question if the Marines take foreign nationals- )
Yes they do, all branches. They must learn English and they become a citizen of the United States.
Knowing nothing of this "Generation Kill" I'll stop buzzing around here.
(edit- dude- sorry, I hit the edit and not the quote. My bad- welsh.)
And actually except for the patriot rush, money has always been the biggest draw for people. Not that wanting adventure is mutually exclusive, but that most people want to be paid if they risk their lives.
Irony is more people die on the roads of the US than die in Iraq.
That said, I'm going to be fairly pleased with the bonuses I'm going to be getting soon.
(In response to the question if the Marines take foreign nationals- )
Yes they do, all branches. They must learn English and they become a citizen of the United States.
Knowing nothing of this "Generation Kill" I'll stop buzzing around here.
(edit- dude- sorry, I hit the edit and not the quote. My bad- welsh.)
[PCE]el_Prez
Vault Fossil
@Dumb Officers
Also, a lot of times one of the only things separating an officer and an enlisted man is that the officer went to college before he joined the corp. Captain America alludes to this (lol - talking about doing security for a concert... he would be that guy). But as we all have experienced at one time or another - just because you got a degree - doesn't make you smarter, better, or in this case - more suited to lead a group of marines.
Also, a lot of times one of the only things separating an officer and an enlisted man is that the officer went to college before he joined the corp. Captain America alludes to this (lol - talking about doing security for a concert... he would be that guy). But as we all have experienced at one time or another - just because you got a degree - doesn't make you smarter, better, or in this case - more suited to lead a group of marines.
welsh
Junkmaster
I agree with Prez. The nice thing about the US is that virtually anyone can get a college degree. You just have to be able to pay for it. Sadly, that also means that not all college degrees are equal. Some people are still dumb asses when they graduate- even if they went to good schools.
Don't forget that most of these officers are still pretty young guys who haven't done very much with their lives. I don't think many of these guys are older than 30 except Godfather, who seems pretty typical military- all about the fame and advancement and not caring very much about the risks he puts his troops through and not very accountable to anyone for his frequent fuck ups.
Consider who these guys are- Marine Recon- they are supposed to be the eyes and ears of the Marines. They go behind lines, hide in the bush, move in small groups, identify targets, call in air strikes. They are supposed to be the best of the Marines. And in this- they are being used as shock troops to find ambushes in open topped Humvees with little more than .50 cals and grenade launchers as main weapons. Had the Iraq's been in those tanks when they went attacked the airfield, a lot of them would have ended up dead.
Ah-Teen- I think you are mistaken with some of your math. Figure that a high estimate is that 50K americans die on the road, and there are about 300,million americans- not all of which are actually in the US. So - 50/300,000
Compare that to Americans dead in Iraq- about 1K per year for a force that is about 160,000 strong- of 1/160.
I think your chances are better on the road bud.
Add that to this- In WW 1 most of the causalties were combatants. In World War 2, it was about 50-50. In Vietnam about 70% of the causalties were civilian. In Iraq, its closer to 90%.
If we lost about 4K troops, and we know the Iraqis army has lost substantially more- how many people have died over there?
As for the motivation to go to war- I think its hard to distinguish the sense of patriotism from that of adventure and spectacle- to be part of something bigger than yourself, to have pride in serving your country and participating in a big adventure where your life is at risk.
Except... what is your life at risk for? A bullshit war fought on false pretenses by a government that lied to its employer (the public)? Getting killed by some dipshit officer who is after promotion and will spill your blood to get it.
Sorry- but if you want to do something meaningful- be an EMT, or a volunteer fire fighter, or something that actually might save lives.
As for foreign nationals- yep... nice way to get your citizenship. But hey, its like the French Foreign legion. That was actually discussed in Generation Kill.
Seriously, before my kid joins the military, I'll ask him to read that book. If it was me, watching that show, I'd think "fuck no, I'm not doing that."
Don't forget that most of these officers are still pretty young guys who haven't done very much with their lives. I don't think many of these guys are older than 30 except Godfather, who seems pretty typical military- all about the fame and advancement and not caring very much about the risks he puts his troops through and not very accountable to anyone for his frequent fuck ups.
Consider who these guys are- Marine Recon- they are supposed to be the eyes and ears of the Marines. They go behind lines, hide in the bush, move in small groups, identify targets, call in air strikes. They are supposed to be the best of the Marines. And in this- they are being used as shock troops to find ambushes in open topped Humvees with little more than .50 cals and grenade launchers as main weapons. Had the Iraq's been in those tanks when they went attacked the airfield, a lot of them would have ended up dead.
Ah-Teen- I think you are mistaken with some of your math. Figure that a high estimate is that 50K americans die on the road, and there are about 300,million americans- not all of which are actually in the US. So - 50/300,000
Compare that to Americans dead in Iraq- about 1K per year for a force that is about 160,000 strong- of 1/160.
I think your chances are better on the road bud.
Add that to this- In WW 1 most of the causalties were combatants. In World War 2, it was about 50-50. In Vietnam about 70% of the causalties were civilian. In Iraq, its closer to 90%.
If we lost about 4K troops, and we know the Iraqis army has lost substantially more- how many people have died over there?
As for the motivation to go to war- I think its hard to distinguish the sense of patriotism from that of adventure and spectacle- to be part of something bigger than yourself, to have pride in serving your country and participating in a big adventure where your life is at risk.
Except... what is your life at risk for? A bullshit war fought on false pretenses by a government that lied to its employer (the public)? Getting killed by some dipshit officer who is after promotion and will spill your blood to get it.
Sorry- but if you want to do something meaningful- be an EMT, or a volunteer fire fighter, or something that actually might save lives.
As for foreign nationals- yep... nice way to get your citizenship. But hey, its like the French Foreign legion. That was actually discussed in Generation Kill.
Seriously, before my kid joins the military, I'll ask him to read that book. If it was me, watching that show, I'd think "fuck no, I'm not doing that."
welsh said:
ww1 we were fighting uniformed soldiers. ww2 we were bombing cities. Vietnam, I can show you what a NVA soldier looked like; I can't say the same for the VietCong.
Iraq, Would you PLEASE show me the uniform of an insurgent? Please? They might have a 2 way radio and no gun. They might have a gun. They might have a car with bombs loaded in the trunk. They might be a guy holding two wires hidden 100 feet from a highway.
Would you please also show me, the statistics of who is killing civilians? Off the top of my head from the last figure I saw, it was 70 to 80% insurgents with road side bombs and car bombs. From that I'd guess that they are intentionally targeting civilian populations. What do you think?
welsh said:
Why not talk to real soldiers or real veterans? Or is first hand information too unreliable so we go to political fiction(I assume thats what generation kill is). Non fiction sources > fiction.
welsh said:
Why do you need a high estimate? You can find the names of every KIA every MIA that is not involved in classified operations.
You can find out on what day they died and what killed them.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/CNN said:
There have however been far more casualties that didn't result in death. Legs arms, shot in the butt like one marine I talked with while he was in Germany. He got sent back into combat after a few weeks. He was counted as a casualty.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bottleneck/2008/07/evidence-road-d.htmlLos Angeles Times said:
Even if you had that high casualty rate, you'd have to also go back over all the years of the war for the death toll on the road. Even then it would still be less.
Because officers are always out for promotion over the lives of the people under them. Think about that, you are saying that officers are, in a word, inhuman. And that their higher ups over look how many soldiers they loose.
From what I've been told, many officers do suck. The majority of them haven't ever been in the enlisted man's shoes. They make dumb mistakes and they order the enlisted around like an extra 5 hours on guard duty after a patrol was fine. But if officers fuck up big, such as getting a whole lot of soldiers killed at once. They get replaced, demoted, or sent to trial. Officers are responsible for the lives and the equipment of the soldiers under them.
Meaningful? Nothing wrong with being in the emergency services. But its not for me. I'm a photographer, and am going into the guard as one. Probably I'll go in as a journalist but there is another one I'm looking at.
Maybe thats a meaningful occupation for me. Maybe I'm looking for an occupation that I believe in. Don't try to tell me the military isn't meaningful, it just tells me how ignorant of the military you are. In particular of the national guard which I am joining.
I won't post again in this because I'm taking it off topic(per usual it seems)