Guns

[Ozrat]

you dont see me calling you a "deaf cunt" now do you

you are @#$%^&* outrageious you must be one of those tree huggers, you think your so smart but in the real world im shure your just another hippie (nothin wrong whith smoking pot if thats what your into) but damn your vews are screwed, if people like you ruled there would be total anarchie


and as for my age well you can go to hell
P>S> dont come back

Heh, nice contrast here!
My argument wasn't about gun control at all. I was simply pointing out the fact that humans did not evolve with guns at all. It was also pointing out that humans are not dependant on weapons at all either because, as most people seem to forget, we're still animals and you don't see any animals out there that depend on weapons or tools to survive. Some use simple tools to obtain food, but they don't depend on them. Once again, I was just writing the hard cold facts that have been established by Anthropologists across the world, not my opinions.

Not exactly. If citizens could deal out death to any criminals they happen upon, how would you know who's the criminal and who's not? Exactly.

The guy with a sucking chest wound on my front porch dressed in dark clothes with a crow bar he was using to try to pry open my window.

Maybe so, but you must admit that not all cases are going to be this black and white. There's tons of grey areas here, so this really isn't a valid argument here.

el_Prez]So you see, guns have evolved. Humans on the other hand.....

Oh for... In case anybody doesn't know, evolution deals with biological changes that take places over many generations. Guns, on the other hand, are not biological at all. Guns don't evolve, they are modified, developed and sometimes invented.

Ozrat, some great posts.

Whew! I was feeling very alone for a while there! I'm glad somebody recognized that I wasn't talking out of my ass. Kharn, thanks go out to you as well.

As I grew up in Wisconsin, I can give a little information concerning how kids grow up with guns. In fourth grade a police officer came to my class to talk about guns in general. He described basic safety issues with them and stuff like that. I don't really remember as that was around 10 years ago now. The thing that stands out most importantly from that time, however, was the way that he showed the class that we couldn't tell the difference between the real gun and the toy gun that he showed us. I went through hunter's safety in 5th grade at school. This was at least a week long where we had to go to meetings every night and learn stuff about guns. Um, I can't really remember any official gun trainings after that, just informal stuff.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

[PCE]el_Prez wrote:

So you see, guns have evolved. Humans on the other hand.....

Oh for... In case anybody doesn't know, evolution deals with biological changes that take places over many generations. Guns, on the other hand, are not biological at all. Guns don't evolve, they are modified, developed and sometimes invented.

Dont be so technical. If you want to go all scientific.... Evolution happens when something in nature changes in order to function better and therfore survive in their enviornment. Well guns live in the enviornment of warfare. And when an enemy nation has better weapons than your nation, you need to change your weapons and make them better in order to survive. Besides, if evolution is all biological.... how can you expect humans to evolve? Nothing has changed in our biological makeup as long as we have been homo sapiens. Your logic says that our societies today are no better than when the first homosapiens walked the earth.



P.S. I believe evolution is bullshit but i think ive already gotten off the subject enough so maybe well start an 'evolution - science or stupidity' conversation on another thread.

 

[Ozrat]

el_Prez]If you want to go all scientific.... Evolution happens when something in nature changes in order to function better and therfore survive in their enviornment.

Wrongo. That's what Darwinism is, which is bunk itself. Genetic mutations don't happen on purpose. Evolution deals with random mutations that succeeded to be passed down on a large enough scale to make a difference between two closely related animals.

el_Prez]Besides, if evolution is all biological.... how can you expect humans to evolve?

Maybe because humans are biological?

el_Prez]Nothing has changed in our biological makeup as long as we have been homo sapiens.

Oh really? What exactly are your sources? Didn't you know that Homo sapiens aren't alive on Earth anymore? We are actually Homo sapiens sapiens now. There have been scientific studies that there have been changes in humans as recent as the last couple of centuries. One that specifially comes to mind is a general trend in penises gradually becoming smaller. Sad, but true. So how do you have people with different hair colors and textures? Different skin colors? Different heights? The list goes on.

el_Prez]Your logic says that our societies today are no better than when the first homosapiens walked the earth.

I never said anything like this, but its good that you did in a way. Pre-agricultural societies actually had better living conditions than people do in Industrial societies. I'm not even going to explain this or quote any sources right now about this. If you don't believe it, just say so and I/somebody else will show you.

 

[bob_the_rambler]

wouldent a smaller penis mean less pregnancy???

 

[bob_the_rambler]

ozrat wrote:
My argument wasn't about gun control at all. I was simply pointing out the fact that humans did not evolve with guns at all. It was also pointing out that humans are not dependant on weapons at all either because, as most people seem to forget, we're still animals and you don't see any animals out there that depend on weapons or tools to survive. Some use simple tools to obtain food, but they don't depend on them. Once again, I was just writing the hard cold facts that have been established by Anthropologists across the world, not my opinions.


ahh but animals do have weopons, such as claws and sharp teeth.
humans lacking those things made weopons. :idea:



okay peole i will stop double posting, this is my fist time with a message board....

 

[Ozrat]

You're forgetting that not every animal is a carnivore. In fact, carnivores are the minority in animals.

Thanks for being more considerate about your double posting habits now

 

[Loxley]

wouldent a smaller penis mean less pregnancy???

Probably only richer plastic surgeons.

 

[Brother None]

Ehm, this evolution thing is a pretty stupid discussion. Check out the defenition at dictionary.com

There is biological evolution, surely, and humans are subject to that. Much faster than biological evolution is socalled cultural evolution, which enabled us to become more "advanced" than we were a millenium ago. If we only had biological evolution, the earth wouldn't be in a heapload of shit.

 

[welsh]

updates

I just heard this on NPR.

Apparently legally bought guns, from the southeastern states (Virginia and North Carolina), are being sold illegally in New York and other Northeastern states, for multiple time the purchase price.

So those arguments that only illegal guns kills people have just been killed.

Its legally bought guns in jurisdictions with loose gun control regulations that are killing people in those states were gun control is more tightly controlled.

Who benefits- well the criminals, but also the gun manufacturers.
Who loses- we do.

Oh and with regard to John Lott, check out.
http://www.brookings.edu/dybdocroot/press/books/chapter_1/evaluatinggunpolicy.pdf


Why would the NRA or anyone support someone who so regularly lies?

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

solution to the 'gun' problem. Buy a gun. If someone tries to kill you... shoot them.

 

[megatron]

the problem with gun laws is they only affect law-abiding citizens. It'd be fine if we had a reliable police force, but instead they just come around to clean up after?

So yea, if everyone had a gun and was shown respect for them I think it'd be ok. Though first people need to be shown what guns do to people or something ;;)))

 

[Sander]

el_Prez]solution to the 'gun' problem. Buy a gun. If someone tries to kill you... shoot them.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry man, imagine this:

You're walking across the street in the middle of the day, suddenly some punk stops you and tells you to give him all your money. As a response you try to grab your weapon, BAM, you're dead(or at least wounded). I see how that tactic will really work Prez...

In my opinion about guns, guns should be outlawed, why? Because guns benefit the criminal much much more than the ordinary man. When will the ordinary man really use his weapon? In hunting, or when attacked or maybe burglared, depending on what laws there are. When will the criminal use his gun? Whenever he wants, and since it's much easier to get guns, and not just that but also legal, so you can't be arrested for having a gun, criminals use guns more often, people get killed more often.

Just look at the statistics of countries with and countries without gun control, here we may have 25-30 shootings a year(And it's on the news when it happens), I know that New York City had a lot of shootings per day! Tell me what's worse...

Meh, one controversial discussion after another on this board...

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

You're walking across the street in the middle of the day, suddenly some punk stops you and tells you to give him all your money. As a response you try to grab your weapon, BAM, you're dead(or at least wounded).

I see at as this. Prez is walking down the street. Some punk jumps out from behind a dumpster with a switchblade. "Gimme your wallet our ill cut your throat." he says. Prez goes to reach for his wallet but instead pulls his ruger 9mm and points at the punk. "Drop the knife motherfucker." - crisis overted

 

[megatron]

on the other hand he could have gotten killed by a stereotype! O NOEZ!

perhaps it would be better if guns were replaced with boxing gloves on springs.

 

[Gwydion]

Welsh, most of those "legal" purchases are actually straw-man purchases which are illegal. So much for laws doing anything to prevent crimes.

 

[welsh]

Welsh, most of those "legal" purchases are actually straw-man purchases which are illegal. So much for laws doing anything to prevent crimes.

Ironically, that's correct. The law is not effective because its a matter of state law and there is little common law liability on those who commerce in guns.

Gwydion, we have gone through this a few times and I conceded a few points to you. But when we went through the numbers, you have crimes happening in two categories. In most homicides- either the person using the gun against the victim is a family member at least and acquaintenace or it is a crime of violence done by strangers but in a fairly narrow range. In that second category, most of the homicides affect a very specific group- generally minorities, poor, in inner cities between their teen years and mid 30s. In otherwords either you are going to be killed by someone you know (and that person is probably a legal owner) or you are black or hispanic inner city male.

So we can understand why New York and other cities of the Northeast want to restrict access to guns. Because guns are hard to get, someone brings them over the state border (just like cigarettes or fireworks) and sells at an increased price.

There are only two ways to cut at this. Either you make each state the same when it comes to gun regulations and you make them tight, or you begin a system in which guns are tracked, so that each purchase is recorded. That way you can figure out who is moving the weapons. Ideally you do both.

Either case you are talking about more gun control.

The counter arguments are not holding up if you look harder at the statistics. The Lott argument about concealed weapons is a fraud. The arguments about defensive use of guns are also uncertain when done by popular surveys. Police records indicate that the dangers that the gun might be used in wrongfully, or that it might make suicide easier, or that the gun might be used against the owner, also indicate that defensive use is questionable.

The answer then is stronger police presence and economic policy. Crime occurs in poor areas that suffer low police presence.

 

[Gwydion]

No, you don't need to have more gun control. Guns don't cause crime, that's common sense and that's supported by sheer ratio of firearms in private ownership to crime. So the gun crime isn't a problem so much as it's a symptom. Trying to fix the real problems with gun control would be like trying to heal a compound fracture by wiping up the blood. You acknowledged that socioeconomic factors are the cause already, so why still advocate gun control? What will it solve? It will offer a very poor solution at best and will suck up resources to enforce and implement. Look at Canada's gun registry and how much more that's costing than expected.

As for the Lott evidence being fraud, that's far from clear. Donohue's study is not without it's faults, and Lott and others have argued against it pretty successfully.

The number of defensive gun uses may be hard to pinpoint, but quite a few studies have seemed to indicate that the number is fairly significant, and it's always far larger than the number of gun homicides.

 

[Sander]

or that it might make suicide easier

Why? Why is that a problem, even in the land of supposed freedom. Meh.

Prez: Aha, and you seriously think that the punk will stop you with a switchblade if he has easy access to a gun? This example may be bad(Mine as well, I shouldn't have said it, silly me), because every single situation is different, but I hope you do realise that YOU are going to be in bigger problems than the criminal when you both have access to guns, purely because you can only use it in a reactionary way, while the criminal uses it in an actionary way, and thus much more often.

Gwydion:Having guns doesn't increase crimerate, and it doesn't increase the willingness to commit a crime, what it DOES do, is give people the ability to use easy an dvery deadly force when commiting one of those crimes. Sure, you can defend yourself with one of those guns, but being able to defend yourself comes with the cost that the criminals can do that as well.

Just look at the simple stats, compare the shooting and deaths involving shooting rate in a country without and a country with gun control...

 

[megatron]

they could just make gun handles too big for children to use and only supply blanks and rubber bullets to the public?

 

[Gus]

they could just make gun handles too big for children to use and only supply blanks and rubber bullets to the public?

Effective... Ugly guns though.