If they'll keep AP system...

A

APTYP

Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
The following suggestions were based on the assumption that Fallout 3 would feature same-old AP system with same-old turn-based combat (think Fallout 2 with new story).

1. Reloading time must rise dramatically and be equal to the time it takes to fire a gun (5 AP for rifles, 6 AP for flamethrower and MGs). Why? Because 2 AP is just so ridiculously low - most gunslingers have around 8 AP/turn. It would force the player to take cover and count his shots somewhat.

2. Lower AP cost for pistols to 4. Why? Because you stop using pistols later in the game as soon as you find a shotgun. Either that, or make Fast Shot perk affect only pistols.

3. Make armorpiercing vs. hollowpoint ammunition more 'pronounced' - the impression I got from fiddling around with item editor was that armorpiercers did less damage without giving anything in return...
 
Yer, but energy weopons should cost maybe 6 'cause you need to replace the energy cells (If that's how they work).
 
Honestly, I'd like the system for JA2 to be used, maybe with a bit more of a reload cost.

Interrupts, saving APs in order to wait, etc.

That would be very good.
 
The following suggestions were based on the assumption that Fallout 3 would feature same-old AP system with same-old turn-based combat (think Fallout 2 with new story).
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When the Jefferson engine was first devised it didn`t had support for turn-based combat. That was put as an afterthought, so i think the TB really won`t be much sophisticated or at least as good as the original fallout games.

I really hope i`m wrong on this...
 
Roshambo said:
Honestly, I'd like the system for JA2 to be used, maybe with a bit more of a reload cost.

Interrupts, saving APs in order to wait, etc.

That would be very good.
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I agree, the AP system of the previous Fallouts was a bit too static to offer any really good tactical combat. Also, if you change the system you might also make Agility less of an über-attribute simply by making more things a factor in the AP equation (Endurance for long battles for example, as well as how well you handle taking punishment in battle, etc.). I also think that Jagged Alliance 2 is the best counter argument for any nimrod who says that turn-based combat is boring, so anything taken from that can only be for the better.
 
I disagree for one simple reason - balance. Making reloading take 5-6APs would seriously screw the balance for agility characters. For low agility, they'd lose out on entire turns just to have to reload, which would make it nearly impossible to use low magazine weapons like the Sniper Rifle, or even burst mode since that reload would pretty much eat up their entire turn and it'd occur rather often.
 
Yeah, Fallout combat might have a been a little simple, but very balanced.
 
I firmly believe you don't need a complex combat system for an RPG, but if they were to change things then;

I would like to see more of an AP cost for switching weapons, not just for swapping a weapon in the hand for one in the inventory but for switching between hands, it always seems a little like cheating to switch between hands especially if you've got a two handed weapon equipped.

What I did like about JA2 was it cost extra APs to convert weapons from different clips, so if you had been collecting ammo from pistols and wanted to load an SMG it'd cost extra APs to load the SMG than if you had been collecting SMG clips.

They could have ammo seperated by clip type, speed loaders and loose rounds instead of just by ammo type with the standard 2ap cost for loading the correct clips, and either an extra ap cost for converting clips or making it necessary to open the inventory to reload if you didn't have any of the correct clips left.

But then again maybe that's making things too complex.
 
To address the topic at hand rather than the merits of a JA2-esque combat system

APTYP said:
The following suggestions were based on the assumption that Fallout 3 would feature same-old AP system with same-old turn-based combat (think Fallout 2 with new story).

1. Reloading time must rise dramatically and be equal to the time it takes to fire a gun (5 AP for rifles, 6 AP for flamethrower and MGs). Why? Because 2 AP is just so ridiculously low - most gunslingers have around 8 AP/turn. It would force the player to take cover and count his shots somewhat.
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While it would be realistic to do so (I know that I could aim and fire a lot faster with an assault rifle than I would reload it), it would screw terrible with the game balance, making low ammo weapons virtually worthless.

2. Lower AP cost for pistols to 4. Why? Because you stop using pistols later in the game as soon as you find a shotgun. Either that, or make Fast Shot perk affect only pistols.
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This I can agree with...

3. Make armorpiercing vs. hollowpoint ammunition more 'pronounced' - the impression I got from fiddling around with item editor was that armorpiercers did less damage without giving anything in return...
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...and this as well. AP vs. HP was horribly screwed up in the original Fallouts. The way it should be is that HP does a lot more damage against unarmored/lighty armored opponents and goes splat for no damage against tougher armor, while AP would do a bit less compared to FMJ against unarmored opponents but would be a lot more effective against heavy armor.
 
Azael said:
While it would be realistic to do so (I know that I could aim and fire a lot faster with an assault rifle than I would reload it), it would screw terrible with the game balance, making low ammo weapons virtually worthless.
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If you made the reload AP costs weapon specific, would it affect the balance? I presume a low ammo weapon would take less time to reload than a minigun, or belt fed weapons. If the AP costs were to reflect this, you could make a single shot weapon that ejected the cartridge when fired cost 2 APs to reload and an assault rifle 4 APs (to reflect swapping out clips), while a minigun would require missing a turn, that'll help balance out low ammo weapons to those with large magazines.
 
Saint_Proverbius said:
For low agility, they'd lose out on entire turns just to have to reload, which would make it nearly impossible to use low magazine weapons like the Sniper Rifle, or even burst mode since that reload would pretty much eat up their entire turn and it'd occur rather often.
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Yes, they will - they are SLOW, after all. They would have to find cover to reload. And slow people shouldn't use Sniper Rifle altogether, or any other gun that takes a lot of attention. It seems to me that your view of balance here is making combat 100% same for every character :shock: .

Personally I'm a firm believer that the only way to make "high-powered/low-clip" scheme work is to make reload time long enough to recon with. Otherwise reloading will become a minor nuisance not worthy of player's attention.
 
You have to provide a viable alternative for low AG characters, though. That is game balance.

And about long reload times, remember this rule of thumb: realism does not equate to fun, especially in a game like Fallout.
 
But what if someone has only 6 AP? I think there should be a small AP-stockpiling feature, or something like that, so low-agility characters can finish the game too.
 
But what if someone has only 6 AP? I think there should be a small AP-stockpiling feature, or something like that, so low-agility characters can finish the game too.
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No, but I don't think you should be dumped into a situation that you can't handle with a low amount of AP. For example when being sent into a RE where you are dropped only 6 hexes away from an Enclave patrol sucks big time. Especially when you have no armor/weapons to battle them. At least drop me out of firing range so I have a little bit of a chance to get away or plan for combat. And the same goes when switching areas in a city map. There should be a buffer zone where I can reqroup. Even JA2 would usually dump me where I didn't want to be when I should have had more of a choice.
 
Well, how would the AP system of JA look in FO3? Everyone got 30-40Ap, but moving takes 4AP. So the reloading/shooting can be easier fine-tuned
 
I personally am satisfied with what Fallout has ,and as it was said , more realism doesn't mean more fun... and Fallout sure is fun... i hope they'll leave it that way... :oops:
 
Who the fuck got this idea that I was proposing this because it's "realistic"? If I was, I would ask for another skill "Clip Loading", critical failure "Drop Clip", and AP penalty for characters with a broken arm. But I didn't. :wink:
 
JJ86 said:
No, but I don't think you should be dumped into a situation that you can't handle with a low amount of AP. For example when being sent into a RE where you are dropped only 6 hexes away from an Enclave patrol sucks big time. Especially when you have no armor/weapons to battle them. At least drop me out of firing range so I have a little bit of a chance to get away or plan for combat. And the same goes when switching areas in a city map. There should be a buffer zone where I can reqroup. Even JA2 would usually dump me where I didn't want to be when I should have had more of a choice.
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As much as I like TB I think there should be an option to switch to real time until you fire a shot. Basically if combat is initiated and TB play starts then you should be able to choose to end combat and stay in real time until you initiate combat. Your opponents would still be able to attack you but unless you retaliate you don't enter TB everytime someone shoots at you. Therefore in random encounters where you're outgunned you can run away with out having to spend 20 mins getting to the exit grid, or you'd be able to talk to your NPCs, pick locks or reload your weapons.
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
As much as I like TB I think there should be an option to switch to real time until you fire a shot. Basically if combat is initiated and TB play starts then you should be able to choose to end combat and stay in real time until you initiate combat. Your opponents would still be able to attack you but unless you retaliate you don't enter TB everytime someone shoots at you. Therefore in random encounters where you're outgunned you can run away with out having to spend 20 mins getting to the exit grid, or you'd be able to talk to your NPCs, pick locks or reload your weapons.
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And yet another displays no understanding of "gameplay balance", "gameplay exploits", and so on and so forth.
 
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