Is the hunt for Enclave members justified?

W

Wish I had a cool name9

First time out of the vault
My opinion is no because the Enclave after the oil rig is an entirely different organization than before. Before the Enclave were a political and military organization, afterward they are simply a techno military tribe. I also don't think Eden is Enclave anymore than the calculator so you can't blame them for trying to infect project purity, something Autumn rejected.

A lot of people have drawn comparisons to the hunt for the Enclave and the hunt for Nazi War criminals. I don't see it, the Nazi War criminals that were tried were almost entirely high ranking officer or members of the Nazi party whereas the NCR seem to be after anyone with any relation to the Enclave like Arcade.

It also seems very counter productive to hunt them down when their knowledge could have such positive affects on the wasteland. The divide would not have happened if the NCR had bothered to take a rational approach to dealing with them. If they bothered to show mercy on a defeated enemy they might have also had functioning power armor when they fought the Legion.
 
Well it's a though question to say whether it was justified.

But for the people on the hunt they had every reason to do it. They had not a single idea about how much the people might have changed after the enclave disbanded. But the enclave is the single most evil and destructive force seen yet in the wastelands. They literally abducted whole towns and regularly went around shooting things up. Once the wasteland was lucky enough to receive a savior who destroyed the Enclave's home base, it was only a matter of time until the revenge would begin.

Look at the hunt for (ex)-nazi's some dozen years ago, as a real world example. One nazi who hid out in south america wasn't even taken to be put on trial, they shot and buried him in some random location and just up and left.

Are the moralities debatable? One hundred percent. But is it natural and expected? Equally so.
 
Look at the hunt for (ex)-nazi's some dozen years ago, as a real world example. One nazi who hid out in south america wasn't even taken to be put on trial, they shot and buried him in some random location and just up and left.
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Those have generally been members of the Nazi party, SS, Gestapo, or were at least present at an atrocity. They haven't been after their kids, Arnold Schwarzenegger is the son of an Austrian Nazi.
 
I'd have to say the master was worse because his legacy is enduring. One explanation for the dumb mutants of Fallout 3 is that the survivors of the Masters army created a new virus to create dumb but effective shock troops.
 
Wish I had a cool name9 said:
I'd have to say the master was worse because his legacy is enduring.
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His legacy may be enduring, but, unlike Enclave, Master's plan had a vision of a future where everybody would be equal thanks to FEV. Unity.
It turned out that he was wrong, that's true, and his methods weren't always the best ones, but his idea was very positive, in a way. Equality and peace for all. No more conflicts and wars.

Enclave, on the other hand, are just genocidal douchebags.


Wish I had a cool name9 said:
One explanation for the dumb mutants of Fallout 3 is that the survivors of the Masters army created a new virus to create dumb but effective shock troops.
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Yes, but shock troops against whom? DC raiders?
And why DC at all?
Plus the game offers an "explanation" already. This one isn't much better either.
 
Atomkilla said:
Enclave, on the other hand, are just genocidal douchebags.
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Everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. Genocidal douchebags often seem obsessed with "purity", pure races, for example, which to them makes sense.
To a logical person not so much, but to a bigot, it is benevolent and alturistic to commit genocides so that the "better race" shall endure.
 
zegh8578 said:
Atomkilla said:
Enclave, on the other hand, are just genocidal douchebags.
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Everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. Genocidal douchebags often seem obsessed with "purity", pure races, for example, which to them makes sense.
To a logical person not so much, but to a bigot, it is benevolent and alturistic to commit genocides so that the "better race" shall endure.
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True.

But still, as far as I remember, Enclave, unlike Master, doesn't really have a plan that will work in the long run, nor is it well presented in the game.
 
Akratus said:
Well it's a though question to say whether it was justified.

But for the people on the hunt they had every reason to do it. They had not a single idea about how much the people might have changed after the enclave disbanded. But the enclave is the single most evil and destructive force seen yet in the wastelands. They literally abducted whole towns and regularly went around shooting things up. Once the wasteland was lucky enough to receive a savior who destroyed the Enclave's home base, it was only a matter of time until the revenge would begin.
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The Enclave used to be a huge threat, but i'd hardly consider their scouting/covert missions and few abductions, as being anywhere near the most destructive. Surely over the years the slavers/raiders had larger impact and the master super-mutants have left a huge impact to date.

If you brings up Arcade, then I suppose you are discussing FO3 events. By this point NCR has replaced its initial idialism with imperialism and corruption. The enclave are seen as the competition, a threat or at least a technological mine. So I think that the reasons are purely Human... Everything else is just an excuse.
 
they are kind of Nazi or Empire of Japan.
they should punished for example for war crime to not to repeat that evil doing.

look at the Japan now, they didn't punished war crimes well so they try to repeat that.
 
I think that fallout setting doesn't lends well to modern concept like "war crimes"(at least not in any way that will let you be remembered as the hero, thing FO1 ending) and IMO the comparison of Enclave to Nazis is due to their plan to destroy the Mutants is inapt. Nazis in no way were the first or to contemplate/execute such measures and what they are noted for is doesn't apply here.

Also for those who are above black and white approach, its important to remember that history is viewed through the eyes of the victors, who always take the higher ground on their own causes/motives...

Here is another POV: We know the Enclave have been content to wait it out in seclusion, until the Master and his Supper-mutant army emerged, who were intent to establish a Master race on the ashes of everyone else.

Likely the Enclave realized that their old policy of waiting it out didn't work, not only the situation didn't improve, but the waste gave birth to various races who flourished in hostile environments to humans, misc abominations such as Centaurs and Floaters, and hostile factions of mindless brutes with rockets who like to dip humans in green gue, as well as new world order start to emerge mostly made of outlaw gangs. Obviously their little force was outgunned and outnumbered, which is why from that point we see increased Enclave involvement in the mainland and step up in their military research.(From new Armor to adapting enemy weapons).

It should be noted that reliable and complete information about anything and everything in waste was certainly spares, especially to some isolated faction. Also there is no way of knowing if a genius such as the Master didn't have additional bases and/or was the only one or his research leaked to other factions such as Brotherhood of steel whose motivations are?

Next we see the Enclave research into the FEV virious, which was used to create the Super-Mutants and weaponising it. Btw while we encountered a nice Super Mutant, overall they were weapons, violent, couldn't be reasoned with and could only be created by killing humans.. which is how they were seen by the majority of the population and likely how the Enclave knew them...

Jumping ahead to project purity. I am not as familiar with FO3, but so i'll just note two things first iirc at that time one of BOS main occupation(and everyone else) was to purify the area from Super-Mutants. Second the Enclave is led by an AI and I have hard time calling it evil, at best I can go with its action were evil.
 
I figured that after the end of FO2, The Chosen One (and the BOS) spread the story far and wide, who they were, what they were doing, etc. The whole "killing the entire world with FEV" thing. Even the BOS didn't know that much about the Enclave as The Chosen One found out. You don't learn that the Enclave IS the US Government (and not just some wacky douches claiming so) until the oil rig.

Then the NCR finds out about Navarro (probably told by the BOS) and together both the NCR and the BOS gang on the Enclave.

Not to mention we know there was a huge remant that fled to the East Coast, and for all we know the NCR is worried they're up for something.
 
I figured that after the end of FO2, The Chosen One (and the BOS) spread the story far and wide, who they were, what they were doing, etc. The whole "killing the entire world with FEV" thing. Even the BOS didn't know that much about the Enclave as The Chosen One found out. You don't learn that the Enclave IS the US Government (and not just some wacky douches claiming so) until the oil rig.

Then the NCR finds out about Navarro (probably told by the BOS) and together both the NCR and the BOS gang on the Enclave.

Not to mention we know there was a huge remant that fled to the East Coast, and for all we know the NCR is worried they're up for something.
 
What story? That some Evil organization that no one heard about, kidnapped some tribal's for experimentation and was planing to take over the world and some BS about some "US Government"? Because "get the fuck out here, we have real problems here" sounds like the appropriate/common response.... If we didn't knew what we did, wouldn't you speculate if it was some BOS sect?

Also after the destruction of the remote Navaro base, no one has seen or heard from them for years. So overall both the harm as a result of their actions and their their status as menace is negligible compared to others actors or even daily life.

The reason they are hunted by the NCR, is the same reason why the NCR hunt the BOS, Super-Mutants or any other organization that won't come to heel to NCR rule.
 
fred2 said:
The reason they are hunted by the NCR, is the same reason why the NCR hunt the BOS, Super-Mutants or any other organization that won't come to heel to NCR rule.
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They don't hunt SM. and NCR and BoS Mojave chapter are at war.
 
woo1108 said:
it's strange because NCR had SM ranger at Fo2.
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Now that you mention it, it is really strange. However, we don't know when they took Mean Sonofabitch. Maybe it was before the events of Fallout 2, and at some point between his release and Fallout 2 they'd come to accept mutants.
EDIT: Or who knows, maybe I misinterpreted the situation and the troopers weren't on duty, but just racist jerks.
EDIT 2: Or not, it wouldn't make sense, due to Klamath Bob's age. And it is also stated it was the NCR capturing him. Nevermind, it is strange, and probably should be considered breaking canon.
 
and Marcus said there wasn't any problem with SM and NCR government. but think about Jacob at Broken hills, maybe it's not that strange.
 
woo1108 said:
and Marcus said there wasn't any problem with SM and NCR government. but think about Jacob at Broken hills, maybe it's not that strange.
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You think a racist faction took relevance after Fallout 2? Maybe, but I don't see the NCR officially supporting such a faction. It sounds kind of contradictory. Specially since they seem to change their mind again by Fallout New Vegas (you have a lot of ghouls sided with the NCR, and at least racists in Broken Hills seem to hate both kinds of mutant). I don't remember any super mutants siding with the NCR in New Vegas, though, and there was a guy in that place (sorry, I don't recall the name) where the Legion used radioactive wastes or something like that to attack the NCR, who happens to believe all the ghouls become feral, and wants to put a bullet in the head of sane one who used to be his partner. That sounds kind of racist.
 
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