Is there any hope for CRPGs in the near future?

G

gameart3d

First time out of the vault
What was once a staple of PC gaming has become pretty much non-existant.

Black Isle was sent packing....Troika is being forced to go in another direction....

Development cycles for RPGs are being expected to be so quick that they are rushed out and nearly unplayable half the time, as it is.

It seems that the only viable way to get funding for an "RPG" at all, is for it to be an MMORPG. And you can pretty much just take the RPG out of that anachronism. No story. No variety. Just an endless advancement treadmill.

RPGs have been through dry spells before and bounced back. There was a long dry spell before Black Isle started bringing back some good ones. I always blamed that dry spell can be blamed on ID. When DOOM hit, everything went to FPSs for a long time.

But this doesn't feel like that period at all. I wonder if there is really any hope for quality RPGs for ages. Its not a completely different genre that has pushed them out. At least, its not a different genre, in the publishers' eyes. They see dollar signs and cost cutting and squeezing every ounce of capital out of an idea as humanly possible, thereby also squeezing out the majority of the entertainment. They say, "why make an RPG?", instead of an MMO in which they can charge a monthly fee.

And considering the MMO audience puts up with ridiculous amounts of bugs and, in fact, will actually pay money to test their games for them, they don't worry about the development cycle as much. They can put it out before its finished and just keep patching.


RPGs need to go back to the basics. The audience is there for quality RPGs that focus on story, development and yes, turned based combat. The best hope for the future of RPGs is probably through low-budget games. Like the movie industry has independant films, we see teams online that try to create games for us. But they have little success with the daunting task, considering the time investment and skill set needed, along with having to earn a living in the real world.

What we really need are some indepentantly wealthy people to be able to fund a very small team of PAID programmers, artists and designers to do this, without needing the aid of a corporate sponsor or publisher.

Then we might truly see an offshoot game industry, much like the Film Industry spawned B-movies.

Right now, the CRPG landscape looks more bleak than the Wastleands themselves.
 
The problem with CRPGs is that the mainstream gamers desire MMO"RPG"s and FF "RPG"s. When time comes around, people would rather make money than make a quality game. As much as we think that Fallout and Torment are awesome (because they are), the market tends to think otherwise so the truly amazing games become a thing of the past. Being critically acclaimed doesn't mean receiving enough money to survive.

I really don't like your definition of RPG. Story and development? Fallout 2 lacked any conceivably good story and yet it's great in its own right. Turn-based combat? Torment and Gothic came with real-time that didn't ruin any experiences. Unless of course, you think back to them FF "RPG"s *shudder*.

And another thing, the Avellone team at Obsidian is still alive and kicking it (though KOtoR 2 hopefully isn't a reflection of their development).
 
I think Europe might be better off than us stateside, but you might have a point. The only "dedicated" RPG companies out there seem to be Betheseda, Bioware, and Obsidian. I'm tempted to throw in inXile, but they haven't done anything worth notice yet. I think Troika was the best of the lot, performance aside. Thats why I got a gig of RAM. What those "other options" are for Troika, though, thats the question. Are they going to have to resort to Cell Phone games? I'm more likely to buy an Xbox than a cell phone. Are they working out another use of the Source Engine with Valve? Might be worth playing. I don't think they are going to go the action console route, they have no experience in it, and to try it will be a waste of their writing and imaginative talents. I don't think RPGs are going to just disappear, since publishers know there is a very receptive audience, just a small one. So, if there ever appeared a dry spell, then some publisher would try to capitalize by releasing a game. Let us just hope it isn't KotOR IV or Generic Serial III.
 
Ekarderif said:
The problem with CRPGs is that the mainstream gamers desire MMO"RPG"s and FF "RPG"s. When time comes around, people would rather make money than make a quality game. As much as we think that Fallout and Torment are awesome (because they are), the market tends to think otherwise so the truly amazing games become a thing of the past. Being critically acclaimed doesn't mean receiving enough money to survive.
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That's a good point. I've always wondered why really great games usually don't sell well.

For example: ALL my friends would rather play a FPS or a RTS that a sim or RPG. Perhaps most of the population of gamers simply prefer these genres over a true RPG.

In my mind, MMORPG's aren't "true" RPG's because they have no story. In any genre, you technically play a "role", but with RPG's you play a role in a story. I think this is the fundamental definition of what it means to be a true RPG.

But this begs the question: Why do people prefer other genres of games to RPG's, or console games to PC games? Are most people just dumbasses, preferring simpler games?
 
I will have faith for good CRPGs even though it doesn't look like we'll be seeing any in the next year at least.

There are still people with talent out there, and I'm positive that some of them will put their talents to good use.

I've been replaying Geneforge2 this week, and it has been quite an enjoyable experience. If Geneforge 3 is as good as the previous two, I'll be satisfied for now.
 
calculon00 said:
But this begs the question: Why do people prefer other genres of games to RPG's, or console games to PC games? Are most people just dumbasses, preferring simpler games?
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To be blunt, yes, I think most people are just dumbasses.

It shouldn't be a big shock, really. The more intellegent movies, that provoke or require thought, also don't do as well as others either(at least, here in America). The "Blockbuster" movies are generally not as good, in terms of artististry, acting or writing.

Pretty much anything that is "Mass Market" has to appeal to the lowest common denomonater. That way it ensures the most profit.

CRPGs have gotten worse as video games have become more mainstream. Small gaming studios are few and far between. Almost everyone is owned by one of only a few large gaming corporations.

Even the MMORPGs have gotten worse and suffer the same "dumbed down" fate in the end to try and attract players from little Johnny (age 6) to be able to play along with everyone else.
 
Yeah, I'd say people are just dumbasses.

People have no patience for CRPGs anymore.
 
Maybe we, intelligent people, should file a class action lawsuit against video game companies? All games nowadays are dumbed down in order to appeal to mass market, meaning there are no games profound and complex enough to sate our intellectual appetites - that constitutes discrimination of intelligent people! By not providing us with games of sufficient depth, complexity and quality, game industry clearly treats us as second-class citizens. We must put a stop to these sordid practices and sue the greedy bastards! Knowing how in America you can win even the most ridiculous lawsuit, I wouldn't be surprised if the court decreed the game industry must produce at least three hardcore roleplaying games a year. To be on the safe side, we will demand a judge who is also a Fallout fan.
 
I'm getting around to making my own games so you people will finally have something to play that's actually entertaining.
 
I'm sorry to say, but no rich CRPG fan is going to pay a group of people hourly wages, only to lose money in the end.

No matter how good the group, a good CRPG is going to take atleast 8 months to make. We're talking 2d, no frills game. Maybe a team of 6 people.

Even if they (6 person team) only worked 20 hours a week each person, at $7 (which isn't even minimum wage in most states) pay. That's $840 a week at 32 weeks = $26,880.

What sane wealthy person would shell out nearly $30,000 for a game that probably won't make more than a couple thousand bucks?

In the end, it comes down to passionate people. If you work for people who are money driven, you have to make compromises. If you have goals of making money, you have to make compromises.

If you want to make the best CRPG in respect to the history of the genre... well, you won't have to make compromises. But you won't make any large amount of money either.
 
Well, if you could get away with producing a good game for 30,000 dollars then I'm sure you would make money. But 30,000 is far, far below the price it would cost for what I was talking about.

No, you would need to actually fork out a ton of dough to employ enough skilled people to do a game right. I also don't expect many CRPG fans to have that kind of dough sitting around.

But it wouldn't have to be a venture void of making money. The audience is there, and while it would never rival Grand Theft Auto sales, it could do better than break even.

It wouldn't be just throwing money away to see a game made.
 
No worries, mates.

The street speaks of an indie post-apoc game in the works...
 
That indie post-apoc game wasn't Troika's tech demo, was it? Troika is an independent studio, even though they have always worked with a publisher. It could still happen. I heard the screenshots released actually attracted some publishers.
 
I think you underestimate how hard it would be for an independant CRPG team to "make back" $30,000 off their game. To pay for the hourly wages. Especially with Forums as their only means of advertisement.

You have to get 6,000 people to pay $5.
or 3,000 people to pay $10
or 1,500 people to pay $20
(or some combination of this)

With a PA CRPG, the team is going to be limited to where they can advertise. Mostly likely Fallout Fansites will be their biggest money maker.
This one and D.A.C being the only ones that are checked daily by a lot of different people.
Still, I doubt more than 1,000-1,500 different, registered users check NMA a month.
and maybe 500+ lurkers/anonymous.
Much less for D.A.C.
How many of those 3,000+ people a month do you think will buy the game? and for what price?

If the game is just out of this world, PA goodness. I'll say the team can make back $30,000 in 3-4 months, tops. With more money coming in from there.
But this kind of extremely good CRPG, might take a few years to get done. How long do you think a team can maintain interest for its game?

Not to mention, if this CRPG doesn't live up to expections by the 100-200th sale. The fans will know, and it will be so rediculed, members of this team won't be able to advertise on any Fallout related forum, without a ton of fans calling them out.

A lot of this doesn't matter anyway, considering the wealthy person paying the Team's hourly wages, will be the one making decisions.
Money is not free, compromises will happen. No single wealthy person is going to pay an entire Team's hourly wages to make a CRPG, and not make the changes he wants. Noticed I didn't say "try" to make changes. Because either you do the changes he suggest, or he pulls funding.

Want to know the real downer?
The 6 men working 20 hours a week for 8 months thing, was completely hypothetical.
No amazing CRPG can be made with only 6 men doing 20 hours a weeks worth of work for 8 months. What about the development phase? What about the Concept Art phase? What about the Programming phase? and what about the longest phase of all? Playtesting for bugs.
It's more likely this $30,000 in hourly wages number, will be much closer to $60,000-$80,000.
Lets not forget, that you will probably need a few more, than 6 men.

Does it make more sense why a project like this can only be made by the most passionate of people? People who aren't worried about making money?
Hourly wages won't work. If a team wants to make money, have each member get the best possible credentials (college) and apply to work for a sellout game company.
If the team wants to make a phenominal PA CRPG that we will all praise forever. DONATIONS split between the team, during the game creation process, then charge for the game once it is finished.

This cuts out the nearly impossible problem, of lottery winning chances, that you will find a wealthy enough CRPG fanatic, to fund this potential money sink.
 
Nice discussion.

What if the audience were willing to pay $50 though? I mean if I could get a hold of a game thats 9/10 of what Fallout is I would easily pay that amount since I normally pay half that for a game thats 3/10 what Fallout is.

Also it can be done. One of my top ten rpg's is "Dink Smallwood" and that was made by less than five people in less than one year. Sure it had below standard graphics and music, but it was so well-made in other ways I loved it.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
Too bad Dink Smallwood isn't really an RPG. No more so than Diablo or Dungeon Siege. It's just a very fun(ny) isometric action game. Judging by the 'huge' amount of game content and the poor excuse for a storyline, I'd say most work went into designing the 2D engine. Cudos to that.
 
I'm all for them (whoever that is) charging for the game, any price they want really. It depends on how good the game is.

Arcanum quality? I'll shell out 30$, Fallout quality? $50, for sure.

What I'm not all for, is trying to find someone to pay your hourly wages.
Can anyone say vapor/abandon-ware?

You have to love your games and love working on them, if you want to be independent.
The money will come, if you don't mind working for free.

If the only goal is money, look at my last post. Get the best credentials you can (college), and send your resume to every major game company in the USA.
 
I was going to post this in a new topic, but it relates so well to this one. I saw this at RPGcodex and began to think the world really is going down the drain. Its about an industry group's award ceremony. I'll tell you the punch now, Kingmaker beat Bloodlines for Best PC RPG. I say things are going down the tube quickly. The gaming industry doesn't even know what an RPG game is anymore.

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6372
 
I will say this , i personally feel there are some great RPG's out there now one of them is Never Winter Nights , it is truly stunning and the second is Morrowind another great game. And why are you all moaning about post apocalyptic games , anyone would think your all goths and want the end of the world.
 
William J Shimmin said:
I will say this , i personally feel there are some great RPG's out there now one of them is Never Winter Nights , it is truly stunning and the second is Morrowind another great game.
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Did you really just say that, do you understand the concept of RPG?
 
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