Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controversial)

[Spoonfeed]

Since you've clicked on this topic there is quite a significant chance you belong to one of the following groups:

A) Left-wing zealots, who are angry of the phrase "Left wing fascism", because after all, how could they, the anti-fascists, be fascists themselves?

B) Right-Wing bilionaires, who agree, or are intrigued by the topic-title and want to know more.

C) A third category, consisting of people who have no opinion on the matter, and mods, here to check wether things don't go out of hand in a controversial discussion.

D) People who hate seeing any of the forum-icons in Yellow

I welcome all, as i am very interested to hear your opinions on this, especially since this forum has an avarage IQ of ABOVE that of a potato, something rarely seen in the intertoobs.

Apologies in advance if i insult you, your family or your values, should however, you feel insulted; I wish to know why, and how you thought i was personally assaulting you.

I have read the Kuran, and it struck me as a half-decent poetry book with "everyday wisdoms", outdated wisdoms at that, but everyday wisdoms, for instance, back then, I did not know excessive masturbation could cause premature ejaculations, good stuff.

As you might know, a Dutch(right wing, some might consider extremist;
(http://dutchconcerns.blogspot.com/2009/01/death-of-freedom-of-speech.html) Politician is being proscecuted for conducting "hate speech" about the Islam, and it's ever so peaceful followers.

Now, I can see why this happened, Geert Wilders(the politician in question, I call him bleachhead) is a complete twit, and does indeed practice hate-speeching towards muslims, and I am certainly not here to directly defend him, nor do I agree with all of his views.

What I am here for is the following; I want to ask you the following:

What holy power(besides imaginairy friends religious people have) gave the muslims(and to a lesser extent the christians) the right to hate-preach daily about everything non-muslims, while a politician is proscecuted for offending the same muslims, that cry out for a second holocaust, a new intafada, and a bullet or sword for every nonbeliever?

It could be because of that holland managed to ship out an enormous ammount of jews during WW2, because of our well-documented civilian records, which allowed the nazis to just stamp all the passports and get it sorted, logistically. VERY efficient.
(Also the dutch resistance was pretty much non-existant, save from a few cells here and there)
It could be that this shame from World war 2, carried over, and now is expressing itself through over-compensation towards muslims.

Why do we allow a religion in our backyard, that dictates that women are worth less than men, and condones pedophilia?

Why do all the Left-wing people keep stealing government funding to start projects to aide these religions?
Why is Marokko.nl(one of the most outspokenly anti-dutch forums out there, GOVERNMENT FUNDED MIND YOU) still online?
Why are there more than 20(all government funded) commitee's and think-tanks assigned to the wellbeing of muslims, but none to the wellbeing of citizens, who tend to pay twice the taxes (unemployed) muslims pay?

Why does "artsen zonder grenzen"(doctors without borders) side with the gaza-terrorists, and why do they lie about what's going on in gaza?

Why does the left end of the political scope want everyone who is not agreeing with their perfect world of children of all colors eating a the same Mcdonalds to shut up, and never to speak again, preferably through sueing the people?

Why, in an age where almost the entire world is getting for a new 'century', is a religion that drives people to murder, rape, theft, and dictates a dark-ages-esque dogma allowed to flourish in our backyard?

Why are these invaders not treated as such?

From where comes that deep-seated guilt in the left-end of the political scope, that we have to "make everything right" for these invaders, while they are COMPLETELY oblivious to our values, culture and preference to personal space?

Why do I have to advise my girlfriend to get a can of pepperspray to fend off muslim rapists on the tram?

Why do I know people, that have been raised as god-fearing christian-socialists, that are now carrying concealed weaponry(highly illegal in holland) to protect themselves in their own neighbourhood from aforementioned invaders?

Why does someone who goes to a pro-gaza demonstration(also known as terrorists, leftwing-fanatics and anti-semists gather to reconsider a new holocaust) with a Israeli-flag have to fear for his life?

Why is there NO COVERAGE whatsoever about the horrors Hamas has committed in gaza during the israel offense and before that on the dutch news outlets?

Why is it prohibited in holland to speak of "maroccan descent", because it would "stigmatize" people who are proud of the ammount of money they stole, or the slur of people they either intimidated, raped or killed?

The main question is, I guess: Why is there a seperate guideline for muslims and other immigrants, and why are their privileges subtracted from the privileges of Dutch citizens.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in some form of equality, but i feel that you have to earn it, and if someone from your community acts like an inbred tony-montana, you should condemn that, showing your humanity.
Instead muslims called out for a new intafadah, because the poor ol' gaza people never did anything wrong.
(they tend to forget they elected hamas themselves, and would do it again today, thus sending out a message to the rest of the world; "WE PREFER TERRORISM OVER RATIONALISM")

One could argue that I'm unjustfully accusing all muslims of being invaders, thing is, I don't really see that much outcry from the muslim society to stop these attrocities.
One could also argue that they are not really muslims, but then WHY are they yelling "Alahu akhbar" as they steal and rape?

I just very much like to know your thoughts on this.
tl;dr: OMG SPOONFEED IS A NAZI

 

[Chancellor Kremlin]

Did you say you READ the Qur'an?

I suggest you read it again, I think you have gravely misinterpreted many of its passages, in the same way the extremist mulah's you seem to believe make up all muslims have done.

You are the opposite side of the same coin of hatred, ignorance, arrogance and intolerance that seems to be your very problem with 'Islam' and 'Muslims'.

Its a shame. At first I thought your post would lead onto something interesting, only to degenerate into the same rubbish we see every day both on the internet, local media, and so on.

 

[Blakut]

What holy power(besides imaginairy friends religious people have) gave the muslims(and to a lesser extent the christians) the right to hate-preach daily about everything non-muslims, while a politician is proscecuted for offending the same muslims, that cry out for a second holocaust, a new intafada, and a bullet or sword for every nonbeliever?

Because hate speech is forbidden in that country. Muslims talk that kind of crap because they do it in their own backwards countries. (well, not the Turks, they are not backwards).

The rest of the questions can be answered with: because life is not fair and politicians are whining pussies.

 

[Ravager69]

Well, he may be ignorant of the Muslim religion (as am I), but he fact thah the Dutch government created a nice little niche for the less...lawful part of the Muslim people in Holland, then it should be attendet to. People have right to be pissed when they get fucked over by their government, that is too fucking scared to offend anyone.

I can't and won't judge your situation, but if it really is as described, then, well' it sucks.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

Why...?

Because the Western civilization is in decline, and like all declining civilizations it's hell-bent on capitulating before the first barbarian war band that stomps onto its lands. Last time it was Huns and Germans, this time it's North African and Middle-Eastern Muslims. We've already had our Adrianople in 2001, but hopefully we won't live long enough to witness the sacks of Rome.

 

[Sander]

It could be because of that holland managed to ship out an enormous ammount of jews during WW2, because of our well-documented civilian records, which allowed the nazis to just stamp all the passports and get it sorted, logistically. VERY efficient.
(Also the dutch resistance was pretty much non-existant, save from a few cells here and there)
It could be that this shame from World war 2, carried over, and now is expressing itself through over-compensation towards muslims.

Ahahahahahaha.
Seriously, this link makes no sense whatsoever.


Also, to answer your question, hate-speech in mosques is allowed on the basis of freedom of religion.

I like your stereotypical retarded rant about muslim invaders and everyone being a wifebeater, though.
Islam as you try to portray is only interpreted like that by the extreme muslims, and is hence not a problem of Islam but a problem of those individuals.

Hey, why don't you start ranting at the extreme Christians who are just as woman-hating and oppressive? Ah right, because they're no foreigners.

One could argue that I'm unjustfully accusing all muslims of being invaders, thing is, I don't really see that much outcry from the muslim society to stop these attrocities.

That's because you're not listening.

One could also argue that they are not really muslims, but then WHY are they yelling "Alahu akhbar" as they steal and rape?

Wait, is this seriously your argument? Some random people follow some perverted form of Islam and hence you go 'They're the real muslims, Islam is evil!!!!'


The Netherlands was founded on the idea of freedom of religion. Why does everyone who goes 'protect our culture!!!' forget that allowing people to follow Islam is a core part of that culture?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

What holy power(besides imaginairy friends religious people have) gave the muslims(and to a lesser extent the christians) the right to hate-preach daily about everything non-muslims, while a politician is proscecuted for offending the same muslims, that cry out for a second holocaust, a new intafada, and a bullet or sword for every nonbeliever?

Simple. Common sense.

If hes a politican. And one with a voice (meaning a rather important and/or popular politican) he should know it better.

I would not compare a religios person preaching in a mosque with a politican talking to the nation or large parts of the media. If that is what you compare.

Why...?

Because the Western civilization is in decline, and like all declining civilizations it's hell-bent on capitulating before the first barbarian war band that stomps onto its lands. Last time it was Huns and Germans, this time it's North African and Middle-Eastern Muslims. We've already had our Adrianople in 2001, but hopefully we won't live long enough to witness the sacks of Rome.

I hope that was just a joke ...

Please dont compare "africans" or "muslims" with barbarians

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

The problem with Islamism is that the Middle-East never had something such as The Age of Enlightenment Europe and the Americas had in the eighteen century. Christianism and Judaism are not better than Islamism, and vice-versa. Look at what the Catholic Church was in the middle-ages. Look at what ancient Israel did with the Caanites. Look at the Crusades. Look at how the Muslims spread their religion though the Middle-East. But The Pope lost power thanks to Napoleon, and they had to mostly adapt to the coming modernity. Judaism and the rest of Christianism usually followed suit. But Islam NEVER went though something like that.

The muslim world never had something like The Bill of Rights, the French Revolution, Feminism, that sort of thing. They never had a shock that forced them to change their values into something more adequated to the modern age. The Western World had to change their moral vallues constantly, and so they evolved into what they are today. The Muslim World never went though something like that. For all effects, The Muslim World stopped in time after Constantinopla was taken by the Turks.

 

[Tagaziel]

Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

Please dont compare "africans" or "muslims" with barbarians

Oh for feck's sake.

"Barbarians" as in "non-Romans", not "uneducated, unwashed masses".

 

[Snackpack]

Why, in an age where almost the entire world is getting for a new 'century', is a religion that drives people to murder, rape, theft, and dictates a dark-ages-esque dogma allowed to flourish in our backyard?

I've been asking myself the same thing since I reached the age of reason, only I ask it about Christians. But then I remember the answer: Because people should be free to believe whatever kind of crazy shit they want.

Why do I have to advise my girlfriend to get a can of pepperspray to fend off muslim rapists on the tram?

Where do you get pepperspray that only works on Muslims? But seriously, to answer your question: Because you're a pussy. If you were half a man you would go to the tram with your girl and a big stick to help wade through and fend off the horde of rapists.

but then WHY are they yelling "Alahu akhbar" as they steal and rape?

So those who exclaim "thank you sweet jesus!" while getting head are automatically Christian?

Why are these invaders not treated as such?

Because rational people realize the only Invaders we humans have to worry about come from Space

 

[Maphusio]

Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

Why...?

Because the Western civilization is in decline, and like all declining civilizations it's hell-bent on capitulating before the first barbarian war band that stomps onto its lands. Last time it was Huns and Germans, this time it's North African and Middle-Eastern Muslims. We've already had our Adrianople in 2001, but hopefully we won't live long enough to witness the sacks of Rome.

Except those in Rome were complacent therefor aiding and abetting the destruction of various civilizations. Then their own superiority complex got the best of them and they themselves were worked over by the very people they thought they had conquered, absorbed and or destroyed.

I believe the situation with the West is not at its collapsing point by any means. The fall of Rome did not mean the end of Western culture and beliefs. I'd like to think we've just hit another bump in the road and will move on as we have in the past.


Onto the topic at hand. While eloquently put compared to most threads, I think its a simple misunderstanding or misinterpretation of Islam/ignorance. To me your conclusions are based on recent events more so than anything else.

Many of the flaws you pointed are apparent in any of the institutionalized religions out there. As pointed out, look at how some extreme Christians treat their women or better yet, Mormons... Those poor girls can't even ascend to the level of heaven that their male counterparts can...

Religion overall I believe to be a great tool to keep a given populous in control. Each religion has its measures to enslave minds and pocketbooks and structure a people for someones ideal world (case and point Scientology). Now, I in turn may be shedding some of my interpretations of religion and may too be guilty of ignorance; however, I hope to a lesser extent.

Keep on thinking though.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Re: Left wing Fascism And Freedom of speech.(oohh controvers

Please dont compare "africans" or "muslims" with barbarians

Oh for feck's sake.

"Barbarians" as in "non-Romans", not "uneducated, unwashed masses".

I know that.

Now tell me how the "Romans" have seen the so called "Barbarians". It doesnt loose anything of its offensive nature.

And even if its not meant that way, it would still be inept as there was a time the Musilm world was in a lot of things far more advancend then the "Christian" world. In both politicaly and philosophical views.

As we "Europeans" still around the 400 and 1200 century started to crush our skulls against each other and slam around the ruins of the west roman empire it was no less then the orient which already established a bank system reaching so far to have almost sites in China, develope mathematical solutions and philosophical theories that are still in use today. Mind you much of the phylosopical theories from either Aristotle, Sokrates, Hypocrates and many more have been saved in Afrika, the Byziantine Empire and further east. A consindience that with the Musilims most of the time "forgoten" knowledge moved again toward west ... like with the Moors in Spain or trough the crusaders conquering Byzanz, Askalon, Jerusalem and diplomatic arrangement with Damaskus.
Before the third Crussade one could walk in Damaskus and see free hospitals and public bath houses. You know for example where a monk from south england had to go to when he wanted to restore a loost book for his library in around 1200? Right to cities in the muslim occupied Kingdom of Al-Andalus. With the occupation of "christians" a reall massacre started again in Spain. And thus the region loost a lot of its importance with the absence of the Moors till the 16. 17. Century cause of "christian" intolarance against the moors and as well pogrom against jews that have been protected from the kings before.

The so called intolarance many Muslim communities are "known" for in the western world came with the crussaders and the war. They were before it no worse in anything then the christians nor were they any united big religion. And to measure now their evoluton or progress with our "value" in the democratic "western" sense is just as wrong as understanding our way of doing the things as the only "right" way. That's pretty decatend and arrogant.

So did the chinese invanded Tibet with the oppinion the nation would be underdeveloped dull in their "religous" agenda. Well obvously. Everyone here knows its not true. And the Chinese are not doing the right thing there.

Now I am not saying the Muslims or certain states that have it as religion are "good". But they are neither ineherently "bad" or savage as whole. Its just that. A different culture. Its the same outlook like saying cultures that life in the joungle close to the nature without any technology in our sense would be "undeveloped" compared to our direct "civilised" outlook. Who says that this is right and that its note in real the other way? I dont know it as I grown up in Europe. No one of us has realy the right to give one culture more value then the other one. It never leads to a good result. Eventualy one who spend time enough with this cultures could give a "fair" oppinion about it. But one could spend his whole live with them and still not understand everything as this might take more time then one single human has on his hands if one is looking on maybe 2000 or even much more time and culture.

The truth is that the christian religion is in its roots not all to much better compared to the muslim religion. We see the catholic church, but that is only one of the faces. Orthodox cultures can be very agressive as well. I better dont tell you what they do or did with homosexuals in Yugoslavia (I am Yugoslavian in origin by the way). Or in Russia. What is with this self-constituted church communities in the US or the preachers that talk about "wrong" cultures and the idea to "eliminate" them? The Christian religion is a very big one and we just have as much Fundamentalist Christiantity as there is in the Muslim world. And yes some of those Christians do kill them self as well.

But you dont see much of it as everyone sees them as what they are zealots. Not true christians. Same can be said about the Fundamentalistic moslems

 

[Mord_Sith]

Wow, I don't think I can say anything I haven't already repeated several times already or that hasn't already been said.

However, how do you know Doctors without borders is lying? I haven't heard ANYTHING even remotely close.

Also, if Hamas is as bad as you portray it, (I am NOT trying to vouch here, just making a point) then how much work would it have been to simply hold a gun to the vote-counter's heads and say 'we win.'

I have no idea what the people there actually wanted, somehow I doubt you do either, I'm not a mind reader, but I know that people get desperate when they're backed into a corner, which is exactly what has happened in the Gaza Strip.

Finally, comparing Christianity, great job, there hasn't been a crusade since what, 1500's? Right now there are crusades in the name of Islamic religion going on still, I don't make any excuses for Christianity, but at least they grew up and got out of the bullying game, the extremists haven't learnt that yet in the Islamic religion.

People can believe whatever the hell they want, I'll STILL call them crazy because they pray to their imaginary friends. To me religion is a political tool, used as a catch-all excuse in the early days ('God told me to do it! I swear!') and now as emotional control in everyday society for those who can't face the next day without knowing that something out there believes their actions are of some import to the grand cosmic skien...

 

[Crni Vuk]

Finally, comparing Christianity, great job, there hasn't been a crusade since what, 1500's? Right now there are crusades in the name of Islamic religion going on still, I don't make any excuses for Christianity, but at least they grew up and got out of the bullying game, the extremists haven't learnt that yet in the Islamic religion.

Grown up? Where have Christians as a "whole" Grown up?

If you now are thining about the katholic church (mainly), then youre more then wrong. Mind you the "Christianity" as a whole is not solely the katholic church and the pope. I was grown up with Christian Orthodox beliefs and I cant really call that a "mature" relgion. Neither certain other regions. Why not asking how homosexuality is treated in Poland or Yugoslavia? More then 90% of the people in Poland are katholics. So much to grace of charity ...

One should not forget which Person, namely George W. Bush claimed to do his job and attacking in the name of God. As the most powerfull men how they say. And there are a few Generals in the Military known for "preaching" as well even some of them in the church saying literaly "Our God is stronger then Alah".

People have a very narrow field of vision when it comes to the Islam. And ONLY accept their value of culture and education. Only THEIR way of politic mainly "their" understanding of democracy as beeing the correct one.

I think it was a book author once that said that we should be very carefull about the term "defending democracy" in relation with the Islam cause in the mouth of some it sounds almost like defending a religion of some sort.

 

[Eyenixon]

Yeah, because everyone human being with a common creed is the same.
Let's call ourselves atheists and bask in the irony of generalizing that we're all smarter than everyone else.

 

[Blakut]

The truth is that the christian religion is in its roots not all to much better compared to the muslim religion. We see the catholic church, but that is only one of the faces. Orthodox cultures can be very agressive as well. I better dont tell you what they do or did with homosexuals in Yugoslavia (I am Yugoslavian in origin by the way). Or in Russia. What is with this self-constituted church communities in the US or the preachers that talk about "wrong" cultures and the idea to "eliminate" them? The Christian religion is a very big one and we just have as much Fundamentalist Christiantity as there is in the Muslim world. And yes some of those Christians do kill them self as well.

You have normal people that are christians: born christians, educated in a normal environment. They are not brainwashed, they are christian because they were born this way. They believe in god but don't do everything a hardcore christian would do. Believe it or not, it's hardcore christians that are the true christians, they follow the rules to the letter. Fasting, praying and all that stuff. A normal human being, living in a democracy and respecting the rules of the democracy wouldn't be well regarded by a true christian, even though he theoretically belonged to the same church.

you have normal people that are muslims: The finest example is Turkey. I've been to turkey 4 or 5 times. They have some bads heer and there, like all countries do, but they are not fundamentalists and thus, do not follow the Coran to the letter.

True chrsitians and true muslims are the ones that we perceive as fundies. Because they are the only ones that follow their belief system to the letter. So the other ones, the normal people, even if they call themselves christians or muslims, they are not really christian or muslim because they do not respect all the rules of their faith.

So yeah, it is ok to say that crimes and hatespeech in the name of Islam or Christianity as being the fault of those respective religions.

Let's call ourselves atheists and bask in the irony of generalizing that we're all smarter than everyone else.

Atheists don't think they are smarter than anyone else. Because everyone questions their disbelief (and mine) they start to think more and more about the path they chose. And they come up with arguments, eventually. To which the answer is, invariably, you will all burn in hell.

 

[Wooz]

What the fuck does any of this have to do with 'left-wing fascism'?

This thread sounds more like Generic Xenophobia, spawning yet another idiotic religious debate. Hooray.

 

[Blakut]

What the fuck does any of this have to do with 'left-wing fascism'?

I believed the one who started the thread asked why religious people can do hate-speech and other people can't...

 

[Wooz]

Hate speech != fascism

 

[Blakut]

No one said it is. But they can intersect.