Linux

[Karel]

I don't see how any remotely intelligent person could even so much as "have a tendency" towards moving to Vista.

1) dx10 (yes, as a gamer i like my shooters with some eyecandy).
2) the utter failure of linux emulators to easily install & run Windows games (there are a few exceptions, but those are just that: exceptions).

Making Linux run Fallout (2) is far easier than making Windows XP run Fallout. You can run most games under Linux and some of them run even better - e.g. for Fallout you don't need any special patches to slow map movement, you can run it in windowed mode,... (I bet if Vista can run old games at all).

However, I gladly welcome Vista, as it moves us towards real wasteland future. Right now, you need a PC with 1 GHz CPU and lets say 256 MB RAM to do all your office work. Power requirement mostly at 100 Watts (your CPU and disk is idle when you use your office suite, and that's what most people do). To do the same amount of work, you need extremely fast CPU and vast amounts of RAM in Vista - to do the same amount of work, but you need at least 250 W to run Vista ready computer (if you don't believe me, check power consumptions of very low end GeForce cards, 6200 takes up to 100 Watts). Slowly we will need more energy, and it's why "War, war never changes".

 

[SuAside]

that FO1/2 runs on linux is an entirely relevant argument when people are talking about linux support of modern windows games, right. since it's obvious that FO is so related to Bioshock, TF2, STALKER, Prey, FEAR, SupCom, Quake Wars, Hellgate,...

 

[Karel]

that FO1/2 runs on linux is an entirely relevant argument when people are talking about linux support of modern windows games, right. since it's obvious that FO is so related to Bioshock, TF2, STALKER, Prey, FEAR, SupCom, Quake Wars, Hellgate,...

Well, it runs Fallout, Jagged Alliance (2), Half-life (2), Mafia, Steel Panthers, Anno 1602, Max Payne (2), Might and Magic (VI-VIII), Hidden and Dangerous (2), Civilization (1-3), at least for me... (more working games here). Thousands of older games run in DosBOX (have you ever seen anything more amusing than Conflict - Middle East Political Simulator?). I guess it's up to you what you prefer to play, whether it is Fallout 1 or Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel - and more newer games tend to look like Brotherhood of Steel, so maybe Wine developers don't such urge to support them.

And anyway, maybe Linux doesn't support newest games, but do your Firefox, torrent downloader, media codecs, (...) get updated when you update your Windows?


EDIT:
I haven't tested Stalker (obviously, nobody could, it is not even out, but I guess if it is worth, somebody will make it work or they will release version for the normal operating systems at last).

 

[SuAside]

newsflash: the Wine/WineX-list is a fraud. half the games on it fail to work on the average user's linux setup.

and even if they worked, it'd be a disgrace to only support so few games...

Wine isn't an argument that can defend the statement that Linux does indeed run Windows games well. quite the opposite, actually, by illustrating how few recent games actually run correctly on it.

as for the update thing? no, windows doesn't do that, but firefox, utorrent, etc do that out of their own. can you also imagine if microsoft did incorporate that into their releases? haha, imagine the lawsuits. you're really a moron for trying to derail my statement by throwing random bullshit around.

how is the fact that random programs get updated through a linux release in any way relevant, when you are talking about support of windows games under Linux? how is your game preference relevant when discussing game support under linux?

and lastly, why do you even presume to understand anything at all about my own game preferences (and yet again, how would that be relevant to the discussion?)?

 

[Briosafreak]

you're really a moron for trying to derail my statement by throwing random bullshit around.

Geez just relax, why is everyone so tense in the last days?


Again please relax a bit, no need to get all worked out.

 

[Karel]

newsflash: the Wine/WineX-list is a fraud. half the games on it fail to work on the average user's linux setup.

and even if they worked, it'd be a disgrace to only support so few games...

Wine isn't an argument that can defend the statement that Linux does indeed run Windows games well. quite the opposite, actually, by illustrating how few recent games actually run correctly on it.

as for the update thing? no, windows doesn't do that, but firefox, utorrent, etc do that out of their own. can you also imagine if microsoft did incorporate that into their releases? haha, imagine the lawsuits. you're really a moron for trying to derail my statement by throwing random bullshit around.

how is the fact that random programs get updated through a linux release in any way relevant, when you are talking about support of windows games under Linux? how is your game preference relevant when discussing game support under linux?

and lastly, why do you even presume to understand anything at all about my own game preferences (and yet again, how would that be relevant to the discussion?)?

1) Don't talk about bullshit - I don't mind why my Windows system didn't get updated as a whole - what it matters is the fact that in Linux the only thing I do to update my whole system is Update-Mark all updates-Apply.

2) WineX is different from Wine, and yes, list at appdb.winehq.org is a fraud, Wine supports much more games

3) The difference is - games don't support Linux, not Linux doesn't support (many) games. The same as with viruses - Linux doesn't support them.

4) My post was related to Vista, it is always good to mention the alternatives, and the second part is directly about Vista and its problems, or rather carelessness it promotes.

5) OK, I admit, Brotherhood of Steel was a bad argument, but it seems to me that most modern games are looking like it.

 

[SuAside]

1) Don't talk about bullshit - I don't mind why my Windows system didn't get updated as a whole - what it matters is the fact that in Linux the only thing I do to update my whole system is Update-Mark all updates-Apply.

once again: how was that relevant to the topic?

2) WineX is different from Wine, and yes, list at appdb.winehq.org is a fraud, Wine supports much more games

i know WineX isn't Wine and vice versa. but neither support enough games to bring you even close enough to the claim that Linux does support windows games just fine...

3) The difference is - games don't support Linux, not Linux doesn't support (many) games. The same as with viruses - Linux doesn't support them.

and this effects my statements how? oh right, it doesn't at all...

4) My post was related to Vista, it is always good to mention the alternatives, and the second part is directly about Vista and its problems, or rather carelessness it promotes.

the alternative had been mentioned before.

and carelessness? i've heard a lot of accusations, but carelessness? hehe, funny one...

5) OK, I admit, Brotherhood of Steel was a bad argument, but it seems to me that most modern games are looking like it.

just like a random human looks like other humans? like a certain banana looks roughly like other bananas?

gee wizz kid, what a useful comment.

 

[Karel]

1) Don't talk about bullshit - I don't mind why my Windows system didn't get updated as a whole - what it matters is the fact that in Linux the only thing I do to update my whole system is Update-Mark all updates-Apply.

once again: how was that relevant to the topic?

2) WineX is different from Wine, and yes, list at appdb.winehq.org is a fraud, Wine supports much more games

i know WineX isn't Wine and vice versa. but neither support enough games to bring you even close enough to the claim that Linux does support windows games just fine...

3) The difference is - games don't support Linux, not Linux doesn't support (many) games. The same as with viruses - Linux doesn't support them.

and this effects my statements how? oh right, it doesn't at all...

4) My post was related to Vista, it is always good to mention the alternatives, and the second part is directly about Vista and its problems, or rather carelessness it promotes.

the alternative had been mentioned before.

and carelessness? i've heard a lot of accusations, but carelessness? hehe, funny one...

5) OK, I admit, Brotherhood of Steel was a bad argument, but it seems to me that most modern games are looking like it.

just like a random human looks like other humans? like a certain banana looks roughly like other bananas?

gee wizz kid, what a useful comment.

1) The topic is Vista and everybody talking about it.

2) Have you ever tried?

3) The alternative has not been mentioned. it was neglected.

X) Calm down, Linux is like religion - there are a lot of people who don't know it and don't believe, but once you see the Truth, you would never ever change back (and you won't like people bitc**** Linux because of games, because Linux is not really focused on games, it is a working tool).

 

[SuAside]

2) Have you ever tried?

why yes, thanks for asking. i've also helped countless people try to troubleshoot their problems at making it work.

X) Calm down, Linux is like religion - there are a lot of people who don't know it and don't believe, but once you see the Truth, you would never ever change back (and you won't like people bitc**** Linux because of games, because Linux is not really focused on games, it is a working tool).

gee wizz! didn't know Linux was a working tool, i only studied it for 3 years straight to become a certified system and network admin (as well as programmer, but that sucks ass).

however, the topic here is use by gamers (this is a game forum afterall, ye know), not for apache servers, oracle database servers, nor thin clients. Linux simply doesnt have the capability of working with recent windows games, and nothing you say can prove otherwise.

as for the 'Truth'? it appears to me you're a rabid linux fanboy trying to be 'teh cool'. how about you try to figure out what the argument was about before starting to spam 'zomg! Linux is teh bestest!', because newsflash kiddo: Linux isn't the best at everything.

me? i'm a Linux fan, but i'm not blind either...

 

[Karel]

gee wizz! didn't know Linux was a working tool, i only studied it for 3 years straight to become a certified system and network admin (as well as programmer, but that sucks ass).

however, the topic here is use by gamers (this is a game forum afterall, ye know), not for apache servers, oracle database servers, nor thin clients. Linux simply doesnt have the capability of working with recent windows games, and nothing you say can prove otherwise.

as for the 'Truth'? it appears to me you're a rabid linux fanboy trying to be 'teh cool'. how about you try to figure out what the argument was about before starting to spam 'zomg! Linux is teh bestest!', because newsflash kiddo: Linux isn't the best at everything.

I admit it, I am not "teh cool sysadmin who know da everyting", my field of theoretical economics is quite far from computer studies (although I had some experience from taking care of Debain server for two years).

I don't believe that this forum is only about games - it is also about culture, interests (e.g. the fifties), or maybe about games modding, where Linux offers much more.

About the "teh kiddie". There are many things I like about Open Source and (GNU/)Linux - it may be the technical supremacy and customizability it offers, but also the productivity. Windows means, let's say, 150 common words. Linux means the whole language. It is much harder to learn the whole language, however, imagine where would Shakespeare end up with 150 words. Unfortunately, if you ever talk to somebody about endless possibilities, he or she will run away. That is why most people were converted by me using Beryl and automatic updates.

The problem with Linux are vendors - it is not recognised, yet. The same problem faced Firefox (or Mozilla back in 2000-2004, I guess). Well, think about a webpage that doesn't support Firefox (or browsers based on Gecko) - 20-30 % of customers will never visit it. Linux has 3-3,5 % on desktops and is steadily growing. Three percent means actually millions of users and I think that when we get to 5%, more native programs and games will show up, so from my point of view, it is absolutely normal to spread propaganda (Vista gets much more).

Also, there is a relatively hidden aspect of Open Source, which isn't really recognised in real life - market barriers. We have some sort of capitalism almost everywhere except Cuba (possibly some countries like Vietnam, but the situation is rapidly changing towards free market). We have extremely fast means of communication (=exchanging money). Yet most people get willingly locked with either their operating system or DRM (Digital Restrictions Management) and try to lock the rest. All those MS Word files with one sentence attached to an email, all that music where the ownership of the product is not completely transferred - what if the company bankrupts, or what if the next release of Windows will not support the same type of DRM (which is highly probable, as it will force you to buy the music again)? This is not something I can easily accept, as it means moving closer and closer to socialism - not being able to choose, having to be like other people, being discriminated for being other, paying a lot above the actual market price (and many others).

All these problems affect me even though I don't use Microsoft Windows nor buy music online - so I think it is completely OK to spread some propaganda, even in the most primitive way of showing pictures-screenshots.

 

[SuAside]

so you presume to be able to advertise Linux and open source by telling lies? what are you trying to achieve? people who believe you and try linux will find they've been played for fools and simply revert to what they know best.

take a step back and you'll see you are as much an enemy of Linux as the average Windows fanboy.

praise Linux for what it does well, not for what it doesn't...

 

[Briosafreak]

I'm reading this duel while listening to Enio Morricones tracks for western spaghetti movies. Fun stuff.

 

[Karel]

so you presume to be able to advertise Linux and open source by telling lies? what are you trying to achieve? people who believe you and try linux will find they've been played for fools and simply revert to what they know best.

take a step back and you'll see you are as much an enemy of Linux as the average Windows fanboy.

praise Linux for what it does well, not for what it doesn't...

Well, everybody tells lies - and saying that Linux can work with some games is not a lie, especially (as you previously mentioned) at Fallout-focused forum. Most people will revert back, because most people hate learning something new - that is a well known fact. It is important to make them try - I think about 1 person out of ten will stay with Linux.

It is a spaghetti-western-fight - and I am the good foreigner fighting against the villain running the town and trying to squeeze last opponents (try plotting some math graphs, the discussion will look much more serious).

 

[Sander]

It is a spaghetti-western-fight - and I am the good foreigner fighting against the villain running the town and trying to squeeze last opponents (try plotting some math graphs, the discussion will look much more serious).

No, you're more like the village idiot fighting the intelligent gunsmith who knows what he's talking about.

Really, though, every single argument you've brought to the table here has been shot down, and the only reason you presume to go on is because you rip everything completely out of context. The original discussion was about games and Windows Vista, yet you twisted it into a 'Linux is teh bestest at everything!!' discussion, which is simply bullocks.

Look, we all know that you can run a lot of old games on Linux. That was *never* the focus of any discussion here, until you came in and thought it would be relevant (which it isn't). Yes, we all like old games. That's not the point. When you're talking about Vista and *new games* you're not talking about the old games.

 

[Karel]

It is a spaghetti-western-fight - and I am the good foreigner fighting against the villain running the town and trying to squeeze last opponents (try plotting some math graphs, the discussion will look much more serious).

No, you're more like the village idiot fighting the intelligent gunsmith who knows what he's talking about.

Really, though, every single argument you've brought to the table here has been shot down, and the only reason you presume to go on is because you rip everything completely out of context. The original discussion was about games and Windows Vista, yet you twisted it into a 'Linux is teh bestest at everything!!' discussion, which is simply bullocks.

Look, we all know that you can run a lot of old games on Linux. That was *never* the focus of any discussion here, until you came in and thought it would be relevant (which it isn't). Yes, we all like old games. That's not the point. When you're talking about Vista and *new games* you're not talking about the old games.

OK, I admit it - sometimes, during the night, I have a fantastic arousing dream... In that dream, I turn my computer on, and instead of ugly simplistic lilo menu, I see sexy Vista booting...

Let's end it, but I won't omit one point - are you really so sure that that a disaster won't happen and many *modern* games won't seize to work on Vista?

 

[Sander]

OK, I admit it - sometimes, during the night, I have a fantastic arousing dream... In that dream, I turn my computer on, and instead of ugly simplistic lilo menu, I see sexy Vista booting...

Let's end it, but I won't omit one point - are you really so sure that that a disaster won't happen and many *modern* games won't seize to work on Vista?

Yes.

 

[SuAside]

I'm reading this duel while listening to Enio Morricones tracks for western spaghetti movies. Fun stuff.

I was listening to Hans Zimmer's The Rock OST, but I admit that spaghetti western stuff would be better.

Well, everybody tells lies - and saying that Linux can work with some games is not a lie, especially (as you previously mentioned) at Fallout-focused forum.

oh, so now we go from "lawl, Linux supports a gazillion windows games just fine, nuub" to "Linux can work with some games".

It is important to make them try - I think about 1 person out of ten will stay with Linux.

making them try by spouting nonsense will only turn them into enemies, smartass.

It is a spaghetti-western-fight - and I am the good foreigner fighting against the villain running the town and trying to squeeze last opponents

No, you're more like the village idiot fighting the intelligent gunsmith who knows what he's talking about.

well, honnestly I was more thinking of the random conman/gambler trying to play his game in a new town, hoping no one will oppose him and then leave quickly. because, ye know, once you played your dirty tricks once, you've got to get out and never come back. (unless you like to be tarred and feathered)

are you really so sure that that a disaster won't happen and many *modern* games won't seize to work on Vista?

depends on what you mean with modern games. however it is highly unlikely Mickeysoft will slip up that bad. sure, Vista gives a performance hit to games, sure, drivers are still a mess, but shoving aside modern games won't happen. it is one of their major selling points to our community.

i don't know if you've got any idea how much money Mickeysoft is pumping into all those games with those lil' "Windows Game" and "Developed for Windows Vista" stickers on the boxes.

 

[RAKTHEUNDEAD]

The problem with trying to play any games on Linux is the sheer stress of virtualising or simulating completely different binary coding. For that reason, I wouldn't try playing any games younger than the Quake III Arena generation on my system at the most under Linux, however tempting it may be to get away from Windows for good.

The fact remains that Linux (and other open-source UNIX-like systems) are currently useful as hardcore work engines, certain business applications (which would be an area which could be massively expanded quickly, and is currently an area in which virtualisation/simulation has some relevance) and as uber-nerd operating systems. (I know that I'm going to be putting Linux - probably Debian - on my laptop as the main operating system, and I currently dual-boot with openSUSE 10.3 on my gaming computer. In fact, I may resurrect my old Athlon 64 and use that as a Linux server.)

However, the low amount of mainstream computer users considering Linux (although more Everex gPC-type machines could convince people to change their minds...) means that gaming is limited, as many Linux users are content with no games, or else with the Quake/Nethack combos they've had for years. And without a shift towards open-source software, there isn't much chance of getting commercial games on Linux any time soon. Pity, but that's the way things are. That said, I'm not expecting as high a take-up of Vista than of XP, and when you've got Dell somewhat on your side, it doesn't hurt your marketing chances...

 

[Maphusio]

At least there is no one here claiming that Vista does not support Open GL After debating the positives to vista with people that say things like that... I've just given up all together.

Interesting points though. I do not know enough unix to really say one way or the other.

 

[slamelov]

Actually, you can play some modern games in Linux (native, without Wine or Cedega). Enemy Territory Quake Wars is an example, like UT 3 (not now, but they are preparing an installator) or X-Plane 9, the last one.

About Open GL and Vista, read this:

Will My Applications Run Fast?

Performance-wise, developers can expect a decrease of around 10-15% on Windows as compared to Windows XP. Applications that use problematic cases (for example, excessive flushing, or rendering to the frontbuffer, as explained later) can see a larger performance degradation. However, expect this gap to become smaller over time while the graphics hardware vendors work on further optimizing their Windows Vista WDDM drivers.

WDDM's increased memory footprint and new video memory manager approach may worsen resource-hungry scenarios. Applications which were already pushing the limits of memory consumption on Windows XP, just barely fitting, may fall off a performance cliff on Windows Vista. This is due to excessive thrashing because available system and/or video memory is now exhausted.

http://www.opengl.org/pipeline/article/vol003_7/