Literal HELL more likely than evolution (for 'muricans)

JohnnyEgo said:
Alican - I spent a decent chunk of time in Ankara, and took a trip once to Cappadocia. I thought your people were quite charming and the country was beautiful. When I was there, religion wasn't nearly as much of an issue as nationalism. Bad idea to say anything negative about Turkey in front of a cop.
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You're neglecting the difference between tourists and minorities when you're considering my "not turkish" phrase. :)
 
xdarkyrex said:
Something is either scientific or it is not, there is no "somewhat".

This is not scientific, there is no possible way to prove the hypothesis, the metaphysical, by DEFINITION, is not scientifically provable.
If something can be scientifically proven, then it is not metaphysical.
Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics
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Damn good points dude.

But did you consider that something without explanation for centuries, and thus transcending the principles of any particular science (i.e. methaphysics), can someday finally be studied and comprehended by science, and thus not be methapysics anymore?

Maybe I did a bad use of the word metaphysic. But the point is, when I said 'somewhat', I meant that they try to stick with science more than with faith. But when science neither proves nor denies, the subject is open to belief/disbelief, and I think no one has the right to defy other peoples faith in anything, as long it harms no one and is not strictly denied by science (example of scientificaly denied possibility: believing that the Earth is plane and/or center of a universe created in 7 days).

Hell, for example, defies rational thinking, in my opinion. How can God (let's assume the traditional concept here) create beings, give them free will to act, and than condemn them to eternal sins for thing that even we creatures can forgive? Worst, being omniscient, he knew they'd go to Hell long before creating them! That's nonsense! Even I wouldn't create a so stupid system, and if by chance, this absurd is the holy universal truth, I'll be proud to burn in hell for eternity (thought I'd start a rebellion there or take part in one :mrgreen: ).
 
It's possible, but until that day it is not science and it is not scientific. Philosophy, nothing more.

Philosophies can become science someday.
 
Got to go with xdarkyrex on this one, Makenshi. You've got just another form of philosophy.

Science cannot disprove belief. That is why it's called "belief". If you can conceive of an omniscient, omnipotent being that guides every fascet of your existence, it doesn't take to much more of an effort to justify your belief in just about anything. The scientific theory of creation is nothing more then a test contrived by a jealous god to weed out the faithful. The world is flat and supported on the back of a giant turtle that translates through the ethereal planes. You cannot disprove my faith in these things.

"Faith" is the belief in something absent of proof. So it can be quite frustrating to try and challenge religious belief with science. One need not be predicated on reality. The other cannot stand without it.
 
Well, that's an interesting way of thinking, indeed. And as everyone is free to think, I agree with you that it's pointless (and rude) to try and disprove belief. And agree that science can't disprove it. Damn, I agree with all you said up there, 100%

But I also think that having proof of something being one way and still be a bone head who stick to faith in the other way is just self-lying. I have my faiths, but I don't deny facts.
 
Makenshi said:
Well, that's an interesting way of thinking, indeed. And as everyone is free to think, I agree with you that it's pointless (and rude) to try and disprove belief. And agree that science can't disprove it. Damn, I agree with all you said up there, 100%

But I also think that having proof of something being one way and still be a bone head who stick to faith in the other way is just self-lying. I have my faiths, but I don't deny facts.
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Heh, you need to go take a few science classes.
Even scientists often do not believe in facts and proof on a theoretical level, but only in rigor and tangibility to ascertain what is highly probable (to the point of being 100% consistent in so far as science has discovered)

Go take a physics class, and then intro to philosophy, and perhaps an epistemology class, and then get back to this thread.
Or read books on the subjects, that is good too. Perhaps some Plato.
 
Heh i'd blame this on private education systems, and closed circuit comunities (yay liberty to believe what you believe is the only truth) and no thorough unified and equal curriculums ... basically it starts at home but the accelerator is school due to a lack of exposure to different views and ideeas .. in no time kids will go dogmatic about many things and will be imune to consider that you can be wrong or that there are alternatives.

I'm not saying people should doubt themselves just not dismiss other views.

Props go to Finland and South Koreea for their education systems.
 
Back to university just to chat in NMA general discussion? No way buddy, I graduated in law and I'll stick with it.

But what you said, I've read it before in some books, like in that Stephen Hawking guy - I do read some physics and philosophy, but it's not my life. And I was just lazy to write down more, explaining what you just said, but thanks. My trust in scientific method in not a faith, and I expect science to go back in it's statements.

What I meant, for example, is that science showed solid proof that the earth is round. And only if they come back in that by showing some revolutionary proof that actually the earth is a cube, I'll be convinced. Really lame example, but you get it.

Don't speak like everyone in US/Europe reads more than everyone in South America/Africa/Asia. Many more, maybe, but not everyone.
 
I said it was an ultra bad example, as the evidence (I take back the word proof, alright? happy?) of the earth being round are not exactly given by science, but by the images of the planet from satellites and stuff, and the many travels made to verify this, from the one made by Fernão de Magalhães in the 1500's to those flights over the pacific ocean (in which people go from São Paulo to Tokyo, for example).

Now please... DON'T take away my confidence about the Earth being round. PLEASE! ^^

Oh, by the way... What the hell makes FSM be, in your twisted admin mind, best nation ever? :P
 
Makenshi said:
of the earth being round are not exactly given by science, but by the images of the planet from satellites and stuff
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Right, two things.

1. You just implied that it's unscientific to say something is so because you can see it is so. You're not exactly making a strong case for yourself understanding scientific principles if you don't even grasp the principle of empirical evidence.

2. The fact that the earth was round was proven by the field of geodetics long, long before the first satellites went up in the air.

My point, actually, was that it's funny that often when people say "it's been proven scientifically" they don't understand or even know the scientific proof underlying the theory, which seems to be the case with you too. How then, in a practical day-to-day sense, is science any different from faith?

Makenshi said:
Oh, by the way... What the hell makes FSM be, in your twisted admin mind, best nation ever? :P
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Dude, Micronesia.
 
Brother None said:
How then, in a practical day-to-day sense, is science any different from faith?
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:? Oh man don't go there, that is a whole new discussion.


Look, Makenshi, the only point I am trying to make is that spiritism is in the same realm as Christianity and Buddhism. Difference in specifics, but not in value. There is nothing even remotely scientific about spiritism, and in fact it isn't even a very plausible theory philosophically, either. That doesn't say it isn't true, or that you should change you beliefs... But it just doesn't stand up as anything short of faith based and illogical, based on biased presuppositions and completely lacking in empirical evidence. Science is similarly faith based, but in a different way. Faith is important regardless of what you follow... but the amount of faith required is where one starts to differentiate between a good and a bad system. A rationale mind can only suspend disbelief so far, especially in light of contrary evidence or more consistent alternatives.
 
Brother None said:
My point, actually, was that it's funny that often when people say "it's been proven scientifically" they don't understand or even know the scientific proof underlying the theory, which seems to be the case with you too. How then, in a practical day-to-day sense, is science any different from faith?
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This reminds me of my religion teacher.
During a discussion (can't remember what about), he stopped, took up his pen and said something along these lines:
"I am going to drop this pen now. We assume it will fall downwards toward the floor. But perhaps it will stay in the air or fly towards the ceiling? Who knows?"
This was quickly met by protests, "of course it's gonna fall" etc.
He further insisted that even though we've all seen how gravity works during our lifetimes, we can never be 100% certain it will always result in the same thing. He debated his point so well that by the end of the discussion everyone in the room was silent, while he stood there with the pen in his hands and a smirk on his face.
At this point, you could cut the tension with a knife and all the faces in the classroom were filled with doubt.
Doubt in gravity, a physical law we've all seen proof of countless times our entire lives.

Brother None said:
Dude, Micronesia.
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What, it's a great resort or something? The name isn't *that* funny. :?
 
Humility through skepticism is something we all must learn if we ever hope to achieve anything worthwhile with our minds.
 
Brother None said:
Your religion teacher made a completely different point, though. So I don't see why it did (remind you).
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Because you need to wipe that smirk off your face and stop being mean to Makenshi.
 
I say there's alot of people in this world who should loose their right to reproduce.
 
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