Multiple Impact Bursts (with impactfx) Test Map up!

[Forty-six & Two]

After a long break away from FoT and modding, i've picked up the editor again.

Now I don't know if anyone else ever fiddled around with this idea, as I remember it coming up in the past on Duck & Cover modding forums.
I've been making a weapon catalogue that uses invisible projectiles for all bullet weapons and so forth, meaning that you actually see a bullet impact (using impactfx). This makes combat alot more interesting and more random.

Im making a small test map for other modders to see, which will be ready shortly. If anyone finds this interesting I will consider making a full size campaign or mini campaign using the system.

Updated version of the testmap.
http://www.gratisupload.dk/download/25518/
Only 300kb.

 

[gunner of shi]

Sound interesting!But in my opinion this idea
got some problems, before you make the map, see this list:
1. One dust spr acts nearly 3 secs, that means
when you shooting, the impactfx is not like
the bullets hit but wind blow dust. The
enemies fallen like they were hurt by wind...

2. It must be in the outdoor shooting for
nobody want to see some dust on the metal
floor, it should be spark or something...

3. OK, you must find the way to make the show of burst bullets hit the dust, decreacing the aiming chance. However, sometimes the dusts show at one time, one point, make the show like buring shit.

Believe me, the dust is not the final solution of the bullet impactfx.

I've done another impactfx, please wait, the mod is coming out soon.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

Well since this method isn't really intended there are issues yes, but i've done alot of testing with it and it actually looks great and works great right now.
I also did alot of testing as to how cover has to work in concert with the system, so no worries. I will upload the map later today.

Do you have any test maps with your setup? From the list you made it seems you found out the same issues with this method as I have. But compared to how the game works normally, its space ages better when you use projectiles for all weapons.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

Updated version of the testmap.
http://www.gratisupload.dk/download/25518/

Extract the folder to your bos directory and make a shortcut using -Path ProjectilesTestMap.

This test map is just for showcasing how i've changed the game mehcanics slightly concerning projectiles. It's not really intended for actual play, rather only testing and discussing.
These changes work badly in CTB and is intended for turn based!

The map faces off 6 player controlled characters in a simple trench fight against a group of raiders. The download is only 300kb and takes about 10-15 mins to play out in turn based.
I made an alternative map where I removed the advancing raiders, so you only face off against their entrenched guys.

Carefull when firing weapons in close quarters as the bullets may "ricochet" (This brings in an unintended element of critical failure) Also prone is not always the best position to fire from due to the way projectile arcs act. Sometimes you will be better off aiming at the terrain instead of clicking directly on a an enemy.

Rarely strange things will happen, but most of the time i've found that these changes enhances the gameplay drastically, if the tiling used with the changes are considered.

 

[freepower]

Wow! Quick work - makes a change for this forum.

Let me test this and I'd be very interested in including this feature as part of my mod projects. Thanks for the upload and great concept.

I look forward to seeing yours too, Gunner. Any release date yet for the mod? Screens look great!

Playtest Edit -

Ok, I liked it, overall. It does make some weapons much more satisfying (big machine guns). I didn't try it CTB, although I can imagine it gets a bit odd looking then, and perhaps overpowered. Am I right when I say every bullet now does splash damage? Unfortunately, this is a dealbreaker for me. While it's fun to actually "spray" bullets into the middle of a group of enemies and take them out, it completely ends the "point blank shotgun execution" because both chars take the shotgun hit. Also, it's possible for a soldier by himself to explode if you force him to shoot the dirt beside him with a big gun.

So, overall, enjoyed the visual effect, although it was occasionally slightly odd, but the lack of point blank shooting and negative effects to CTB means that I won't (unless some workarounds get done) be using it myself.

Nice to see some interesting work done so quickly though, keep contributing!

 

[Forty-six & Two]

Wow! Quick work - makes a change for this forum.

Thank you, although it's been coming for awhile before I posted, hehe.

Am I right when I say every bullet now does splash damage? Unfortunately, this is a dealbreaker for me. While it's fun to actually "spray" bullets into the middle of a group of enemies and take them out, it completely ends the "point blank shotgun execution" because both chars take the shotgun hit. Also, it's possible for a soldier by himself to explode if you force him to shoot the dirt beside him with a big gun.

Well you can still shoot enemies with a shotgun from up very close and the way i've done it makes shotguns a sort of crippling weapon, meaning that its many pellets will tear up the enemy and do critical damage/knockover rather then direct damage. When their down you can pick them off with a pistol/smg or go close with a melee weapon.

I like the fact that you can't shoot from point blank without hurting yourself, as it enables melee combat! Melee combat is an important part of Turn Based and while this map may not be situational for melee, I really do hold it in high regard.

 

[freepower]

I agree with you on most levels, but for me it's just too odd an anomaly to bring into the game. I don't want to have warn players to not shoot people at point blank, and I feel it spoils the immersion - I might consider this for a heavy machine gun/autocannon firing "explosive" rounds, that might well be a lot of fun...

Just imagine having only enough AP to fire and knowing you needed to walk away before shooting. It would drive you mad.

I'm rather fond of melee combat too, so expect some tweaks to melee weapons, deathclaws and dogs (which face it, were useless in combat) to my mod.

On a final note, whar'd you get those weapon sprites? Would you mind if I used one or two of them? I think I've seen some before, but not all of them...

ED: Holy crap, what happened to AC? No wonder my to-hit chances were so low!

On a second playtest, I like the general effect more and more... but dislike the weird effects. I had a guy shoot a shotgun at the ground 10 feet in front of him and hit himself and the ground behind, another guy hit himself with every bullet aiming 6 feet ahead, and a few more of those.

I can imagine you've probably tried different damage radii and other mechanics - what effect does a smaller radius have on the weird effects? What's the point in that -400AC?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Interesting idea but for me the vehicle dust just doesn't work. Oh it looks fine in the test map, but swap the dirt floor for something else and it looks odd. Have you thought about using the impact laser it's much more versitile for different floor tiles.

I think the point blank damage though is a bad idea, like freepower said it might work for explosive weapons, but then explosive weapons already have a damage radius. Plus I think it's incuring the spread fire bug, I'm firing at an opponent 5-6 tiles away and hitting the character firing and those either side of him.

One small thing the new laser smg, you've used the laster gattling sound effect, since there's a wind up period with the gattling the sound effect isn't playing until after the shots have been fired and impacted. IIRC both laser and plasma sound effects have burst settings so unless this, rather odd, effect is intended you don't need to use the minigun sounds for laser burst fire.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

I agree with you on most levels, but for me it's just too odd an anomaly to bring into the game. I don't want to have warn players to not shoot people at point blank, and I feel it spoils the immersion - I might consider this for a heavy machine gun/autocannon firing "explosive" rounds, that might well be a lot of fun... Just imagine having only enough AP to fire and knowing you needed to walk away before shooting. It would drive you mad.

Well honestly I don't think anyone would shoot a assault rifle/machinegun gun from point blank range, unless they were forced to. Bullets do ricochet and your enemy can grab at your weapon and turn it towards you while its bursting or even worse, disarm you entirely. "Point blank shotgun executions" doesnt seem like something someone would actually try to acheive in a real fight... a knife or a club would do a much better job at point blank and would be alot more reliable and silent.
I try to make a realistic mod, so this is not really a concern for me, hehe.

Some of the strange things happening are related to the way projectiles arc in the game. The problems your encountering
were already in the game when you use grenades/rockets weapons as they always had a small chance to hit yourself and it requires attention to avoid this.
All you gotta do is apply the same caution here.

You gotta remember also to aim at the tiling sometimes, instead of clicking directly at an enemy. This will make a big difference for self-friendly fire.
These changes make combat very different and you have to adapt to this.
I've playtested the system alot and I usually never get my own guys killed, while keeping the play natural. I also enjoy the big friendly fire issue, as it makes combat alot more realistic!

On a final note, whar'd you get those weapon sprites? Would you mind if I used one or two of them? I think I've seen some before, but not all of them...

Their all from sprite packs that were made by others, so no I don't mind at all. I don't quite remember where I got them as i've had them on my HD for years. I can email the packs to you if you want though, their all very nice and contain many more weapon sprites.

I can imagine you've probably tried different damage radii and other mechanics - what effect does a smaller radius have on the weird effects? What's the point in that -400AC?

There is less friendly fire with smaller radii, but it also means that the weapons become less lethal and each seperate impact point wont be "dangerous" enough to players, making it look and work bad.

Well I just wanted the armor class to be negative for the changes to work best, but it doesnt have to be that low to work, it just makes it easier to work with.
Armor class is still effective and the better armor you wear, the lesser chance of bullets hitting you. But with this mod, the most imporant part of your armor is the damage reduction it does.

Plus I think it's incuring the spread fire bug, I'm firing at an opponent 5-6 tiles away and hitting the character firing and those either side of him.

Hmm, I have no idea why you would say this, as my system actually fixes the spread fire bug entirely by eliminating the fire modes that incurred it.

What youre seeing is random projectile impact. It makes the game alot more random and means that you won't always hit what you shot at!

Interesting idea but for me the vehicle dust just doesn't work. Oh it looks fine in the test map, but swap the dirt floor for something else and it looks odd. Have you thought about using the impact laser it's much more versitile for different floor tiles

This is true, I didn't really test with any other impactfx then the dust. Maybe laser is alot better and dynamic choice. I will try it out, thanks.
Oh and the laser smg I made was just a fast cook up, I actually forgot to change the sound. As I said its just a test map to showcase the bullet impacts.

Edit: You are most certainly correct! The laser impact looks alot better then the vehicle dust one. I will be testing some more impactfx's from now on I think. This should also make it look better on metal surfaces. Good tip there mate.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The sprites IIRC come from Macbeth and/or Sergalio's sprite packs, they should still be available at JJ's.

The spread fire bug, we don't know exactly what conditions cause it so how can you say for sure it's eliminated. Firing at targets several tiles in front of you should not hit yourself or people 90 degrees to your left or right or even behind you especially when standing in the open without a lot of surfaces to ricochet off. Random is not always good. You've added such a huge negative accuracy bonus that's bound to cause it's own problems.

Maybe if your entire campaign is set in a tight tunnel/corridor environment this effect would be justified but otherwise if anything I think you've made the spread fire bug even worse.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

The spread fire bug, we don't know exactly what conditions cause it so how can you say for sure it's eliminated.

Well im pretty sure I do know that mate. Its the Arc choices in the weapons setup that is to blame entirely and I use "none" on all my weapons.

Try it out. Fire a standard minigun with none as arc setting and there will be no spread fire bug ever.

Firing at targets several tiles in front of you should not hit yourself or people 90 degrees to your left or right or even behind you especially when standing in the open without a lot of surfaces to ricochet off. Random is not always good. You've added such a huge negative accuracy bonus that's bound to cause it's own problems.

Ahh, I don't know how this is happening. I have never seen anything like that while playtesting this stuff and i've been working on it on-off for 3 months now.

The only time you will damage yourself is when you fire into something infront of you and this is easy to tell when is going on. Lying down and firing at something on a lower level might also incur friendly fire, but this will rarely happen and using etherial tiles for edges of elevated areas fixes this entirely.
The tiling involved has to be considered! As you can see in the editor I made several etherial and window tiles in the map. The placing of the sandbags is significant as well.

Edit: actually I think that making all floor tiles "window" might help this mod alot. I'ts a big job to do and you will have to make black tiles beneath surfaces that has underground locations below them, as a midsection to block wiew.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

My characters were all standing, but your support weapon has a arc set to straight, it was the worst offender. But still there are valid reasons to fire a burst close range, a single burst is probably enough to kill an opponent outright yet melee might take several attempts. If your character is low on health or a poor melee fighter then a close range burst or shotgun blast (shotguns are always more effective the closer you are unless you are on riot control and looking for maximum dispersal) is the more sensible option. But with your guns it's pure suicide, personally I think the best way to encourage melee at close range is just ammo scarcity.

Making floor tiles windowed wouldn't make sense as 'window' halves the bounding box and floor tiles are at the minimum anyway. You could try setting them to trellis but really I think the problem is the amount of negative accuracy bonus, as the accuracy bonus really comes into affect when prone.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

The 5.56 MG in the testmap was set to 2.5 damage radii which might have been abit to much. I lowered it to 2.25 and it can fire even closer to the character without hitting and it still has the stopping power I want.
And you are correct I mistakenly set it to straight! That must be why youre seeing strange things, hehe. My mistake. I don't know why I forgot that.

Well right now you can still hit enemies only 1½-2 tiles away without self damage, you just have to aim behind the enemy instead of clicking on him. This will make a big difference.

Well of course you would fire weapons at very close ranges, but when were talking actual point blank it means your gun nozzle might touch your opponent and then I don't see how being disarmed or having your weapon pushed away isn't an issue then.

Of course it might be a little annoying that you cant walk your character up directly next to an enemy (side by side) and pop out of stealth shooting the enemy in the back.... but you can still do this only 1½-2 tiles away I promise you!
Also my melee weapons will hit hard and most of them will kill a equally quality armored opponent outright with 1-2 blows.
(Tried having those raiders in my map run out of ammo and charge you with their clubs? )

Anyway this is a game and if I make a campaign melee will play a big role. I like the fact that you have to back out of melee range to fire a ranged weapon. Having a melee weapon in the second weapon slot will even become a viable option!

I think the problem is the amount of negative accuracy bonus, as the accuracy bonus really comes into affect when prone.

You might be right. I did plan on lowering the massive amount of negative accuracy later on, as I said before, it's not really nedded and as you point out, it might be a hindrance to what I want to achieve.

Edit: Ok I made some changes. Gonna play it through once and then check up on what I see. Ill upload again if anyone is interested in trying.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

There's two slight niggles, one is that the tiles are 1.5m square and to truly be at point blank range in the game you'd have to have the sprites occupying the same space, but that's a question of aesthetics. The other is the not clicking on a target, sorry it's just too ingrained from spending hundreds of hours playing these types of games.

Looking at my notes I found that an accuracy bonus over 250 didn't make much if any difference, even for a 1 perception character. I never tested how far negative values affected things.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

Updated version of the testmap.
http://www.gratisupload.dk/download/25518/

-I added a shooting range map where you can test each weapon on non active raiders. This should help you get a feel for how it works.

You must have used left click attack on terrain with grenades/rockets many times... it increases the effectiveness of those weapons alot! Like aiming between two enemies to maximize the AoE damage and throwing grenades through/over things.

It's really just the same principle you use for these weapons, since every weapon is a projectile weapon like the rocket launcher.

With this setup you get the option to control your bullet burst fire more then the original version and adds excitement and randomness (at least imo. since the Arc options like Burst/Cone always were utterly bugged and badly done).
I can understand if you dislike Turn Based though, since this way of making weapons works very badly in CTB.

I set the negative values a little lower. Doesnt make much difference as to what I want it to do, but it makes things more manageble and better looking I guess. The laser impact certainly simulates bullet impacts better btw.!

Right now my main issue is single shot weapons, as sometimes when you fire at a certain angle bullets will just hit the ground infront of the target every time.
This problem becomes less frequent if your character isn't prone, but shooting from prone is an important feature and I do hate to break that.

Edit: Actually the only way to fix this problem is to just remove projectile fire from single shot weapon and be done with the problem entirely.

Anyway, I will keep tweaking the values and eventually i'll make a bigger project with event/story driven maps. I have a bunch of nearly done maps from past projects.

Note -I think 1½-2 tiles might even be exaggerated unless the weapon has more then 1.75 damage radii .
I've shot enemies just 1 tile away without damaging myself on a consistent basis in this fashion actually, and thats using a shotgun which fires 25 ammo (with 2 damage radii).

Does it get more point blank then that without looking silly?! Honestly... you must remember that the extension of the rifle is almost one tile by itself, meaning that if you go any closer your weapon will start overlapping with the target!

But you will have to aim abit behind the target to account for bullet spread, still. This must be taken into account. Is it really that much of a hassle? You get visual cookies, elimination of spread fire bug, more randomized damage per burst. Also if I should say so myself it adds to realism and immersion.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I prefer TB but I am conditioned to click on my target to attack with regular weapons.

There's nothing wrong with the 'cone' arc, remember it's 3d compared to the others which are only 2d, I've looked over my notes and set up a test map I can duplicate the bug with the 'burst' arc 100% of the time and have yet to see it happen with the other arcs. Although of the arcs the only one which will work with the projectile/impact fx is 'straight'.

I still don't see why a non explosive round would need a damage radius, if you have two targets side by side then you'd only need to hit one to damage the other. It seems far more unrealistic than point blank shooting.

I can't duplicate the problem you were having with the single shot and impact fx, what was the problem angle exactly?

The reduced negative accuracy bonus is much more managable, I haven't seen any friendly fire so far since the update.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

It's true that you will sometimes see enemies get hit by the same bullet, but at least the damage is different for each target and usually this only looks bad with single shot weapons that fire one projectile.
Also it's only when stupid enemies stand right next to each other, which won't happen with fixed emplacements like the entrenched raiders in the background who are almost completely stationary. Scripting a fight with waypoints/zones could be a workaround to avoid this as well, I guess.

I think its about a 40 degree angle and worst when prone. But it's not really an issue anymore since I removed projectile fire from the hunting rifle and it mostly happens with weapons that are set to "Long" range setting and then when you go in close.

The .44 revolver will propably do this annoying little trick sometimes still.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Scripting a fight with waypoints/zones could be a workaround to avoid this as well, I guess.

Unfortunately not, once the enemy is engaged their ai takes over and abandons any waypoints.

I re-enabled the impact fx and was unable to reproduce the effect, I'm guessing that the character was constantly missing which is why the impact fx was shown. If the target took any damage it was purely from the damage radius.

 

[Forty-six & Two]

It doesn't happen very often, but when it does it does so consistently and means that the character won't hit unless the angle changes.

Ah ya, I know, but I meant making enemies move in formation with seperate sets of waypoints prior to combat so that they won't clutter up as much when engaged. I know that when AI enters combat they will either fight or follow waypoints if their priority is high enough and agression is low. At least it says that in the editor, I don't believe i've put it to the test though.

Thanks for testing the stuff and giving pointers btw. appreciate it

 

[freepower]

I've been playtesting further, and there's a few niggles for me -

A) the insane ACs means sentry mode and overwatch are very strange. The game thinks that 0% chance to hit actually is 0% chance to hit and doesn't fire when it could.

B) shotgun ammo in the 100s? I know it fires 25 "shells" at a time, but that just seems strange to me as a player, while I understand it's necessity as a modder.

I'm not convinced the sacrifices make up for the rewards, but I'll definately keep an eye on this project and I'll playtest any updates. I think I may well make some kind of "Heavy Slugger Autocannon", after seeing how much fun the burst weapons can be in this mod.