Post nuclear economy

[Karel]

I'm looking for suggestions - not merely based on real Fallout, but on your expectations (watching Thread is recommended).

What will be the currency? Gold? Silver? Copper? Ammunition? Bottle caps? Cigarettes? It must be liquid, have small price, etc.

Workforce - are there enough people? Is there high unemployment or is the situation similar to "post-plague" medieval Europe?

Agriculture - do people grow crops? Why aren't there any potatoes? Is feeding a brahmin cheaper then growing a plant (amount of arable land vs amount of workforce)?

How expensive are weapons, what is the literacy rate, infant mortality rate (imagine people from a large town - they know nothing about the nature, a 19th century person is better equipped then we are)?

Please, speculate (Post any ideas, add new questions, anything)

 

[SuAside]

immediately after the breakdown? barter only, no currency.

work? everyone has to do something, even if it's just scavenging or growing their own food.

weapons? depends on what environment you're talking about. for the USA, you have a very high ammount of weapons, but many will start breaking down. thus weaponsmiths will make a pretty buck. i also suspect pre-collapse ammo will become just as valuable as the weapons. there's no way post-apoc ammo will be as qualitative as current surplus. still, production of new weapons and ammo shouldn't be too hard, though quality and functionality will obviously suffer.

literacy rate will drop, but not to huge extremes.

infant mortality rate will rise steeply, as we are used to depend on modern medicine.

 

[Blakut]

What will be the currency? Gold? Silver? Copper? Ammunition? Bottle caps? Cigarettes? It must be liquid, have small price, etc.

Currency implies organised economy, a state. When these fall, all you have left is bartering. So my guess is no currency. Of course, there will be some valuable things like uncontaminated water, food and medicine. Money today is worhless in itself, just a piece of paper. It's valuable because we all agree it is, and the state does too. If there is no state to regulate the money, and no one acknowledges it's value, gold or silver might be worthless. It has to be something everybody agrees it's valuable. Something everybody needs.

Workforce - are there enough people? Is there high unemployment or is the situation similar to "post-plague" medieval Europe?

A work force needs an industry industry. My guess is after a nuclear war there would be no industry because there would be no demand for it. Everybody would become a handyman, and some that are more skilled than others would probably survive longer.

Agriculture - do people grow crops? Why aren't there any potatoes? Is feeding a brahmin cheaper then growing a plant (amount of arable land vs amount of workforce)?

People could grow crops, if they lived in an uncontaminated area. That is not enough though, rain and wind might bring radioactive fallout into the area. One heavy radioactive fallout is enough to contaminate the soil. Plants might not die instantly, not even the people. Probably in a few years lots of people start to have cancer, become sterile, give birth to deformed children. For the community, it is the same thing as dying.

How expensive are weapons, what is the literacy rate, infant mortality rate (imagine people from a large town - they know nothing about the nature, a 19th century person is better equipped then we are)?

In a country with lots of guns (like the USA or Canada) weapons would be cheaper. In a country where all the guns are owned by the military (like my own country) weapons would probably be more expensive, since the military might be the first thing to be exterminated in a war (military bases are likely targets for nukes, and there is no base in the world that can withstand a direct hit).

People in a large town would die first, because large towns are also the most likely targets. Even if you manage to survive, the smartest thing to do would be to exit the large town, as it provides no safe place - lots of people with limited resources, towns rely on supplies brought from agricultural areas.

Probably the ones most likely to survive would be those that live in remote areas, simple people. My guess is that they would be really busy with surviving, so education won't mean too much to anyone.

 

[Ravager69]

It all depends on the level of destruction and how many people survived, which cannot be predicted. Of course the losses would be heavy, but nevertheless - more people, more social relations are needed. Let's assume that one of the USA states or some european country will be less destroyed and it's population will surivive in a relatively big level, then simple bartering won't be enough. After time passes, practical currency that will not be used up by it's owner will be needed, such as money. In the less populated or remote areas there'd be barter only I guess.

Education will be reserved to those that would live in a fairly safe conditions with access to sufficient amounts of food.

Infat mortality rate will go sky-high, especially due to mutation from fallout and harsh enviroment. Weapons will be priced also and ammo especialy.

 

[Karel]

(Post any ideas, this is secret brainstorming for Fallout: BGE - I have my own theories, but I won't post them here as I could influence you or I may be too biased as theoretical economics student).

 

[alec]

Anarchy in the UK!
And all over the world.

After the bombs fall/after the floods/after the bombs fall and the floods strike, don't expect humans to care too much about how their crops are doing or what the currency is.

It'll be bartering/scavenging/stealing and murdering.

Work? Ha! Some people will be growing their own food, people in the countryside, but the badass mofos from the cities will undoubtedly fuck them up just to take hold of their fertile lands and their crops (another good reason to not own a house and property in the countryside --> most obvious target when the cities run dry).

Agriculture will blossom and bloom after a worldwide catastrophe, but it won't be the original farmers that work the lands - unless they have been enslaved to do so. It'll be the guys with the most guns that own the farms.

Weapons? Survival of the fittest, more likely. Don't matter which guns are used during that process, be it bare bones or brass knuckles: the meanest will win.

Also: rape, rape, rape. After the bombs fall/the floods come and authority has gone berserk, women will be used as napkins. Cum napkins more precisely.

 

[myzko]

Anarchy in the UK!
And all over the world.

After the bombs fall/after the floods/after the bombs fall and the floods strike, don't expect humans to care too much about how their crops are doing or what the currency is.

It'll be bartering/scavenging/stealing and murdering.

Work? Ha! Some people will be growing their own food, people in the countryside, but the badass mofos from the cities will undoubtedly fuck them up just to take hold of their fertile lands and their crops (another good reason to not own a house and property in the countryside --> most obvious target when the cities run dry).

Agriculture will blossom and bloom after a worldwide catastrophe, but it won't be the original farmers that work the lands - unless they have been enslaved to do so. It'll be the guys with the most guns that own the farms.

Weapons? Survival of the fittest, more likely. Don't matter which guns are used during that process, be it bare bones or brass knuckles: the meanest will win.

Also: rape, rape, rape. After the bombs fall/the floods come and authority has gone berserk, women will be used as napkins. Cum napkins more precisely.

You know, it's possible to rape a guy too, and girls can be stronger & meaner than some guys, even if a guy is physically strong he can still act like a total pussy, and be a great rape target!


Also I don't see why the countryside would be the obvious targets? I'd say the Urban cities are scavenged most, all the citymarkets/stores/apartments


People in the countryside generally have more weapons and are more protective about their houses, and I can really see small communities banding togheter

 

[Kanhef]

Rural communities would be the first to come together and support each other. For the first couple of years, survival would be the single most important thing, and there would be no tolerance for anything that threatens their survival.

I'd expect frontier/Wild West justice (like Redding in F2), not bothering with due process in most cases. Serious crimes would usually be punished with execution – when food is scarce, you can't afford to feed murderers/rapists in jail for years.

Assuming most major cities get hit, industrial production would come to a halt. There would still be stores of some supplies (fuel, machined tools, medical supplies, etc.), but when they're used up or wear out, technology will drop back two or three centuries. Once society recovers enough to think about more than basic survival, it would be redeveloped fairly quickly, as the ideas and principles haven't been lost. Sanitation, for example.

The educational system would shut down, of course. Parents would still give their kids a basic education, but it could take years for high-school level education to come back, and possibly decades for colleges. Most large universities would have been destroyed.

 

[Blakut]

Agriculture will blossom and bloom after a worldwide catastrophe, but it won't be the original farmers that work the lands - unless they have been enslaved to do so. It'll be the guys with the most guns that own the farms.

Interesting, a return to a feudal economy?

Also: rape, rape, rape. After the bombs fall/the floods come and authority has gone berserk, women will be used as napkins. Cum napkins more precisely.

That would happen to women who are alone. But if the cities are the first to be destroyed, the only women left would be those in the country side. And those women are usually part of a family, so they wouldn't be totally unprotected.

People in the countryside generally have more weapons and are more protective about their houses, and I can really see small communities banding togheter

Only in the US or Canada or other countries where civilians have guns. In my country the only weapons people in the countryside would have would be pitchforks, scythes and axes.

Weapons? Survival of the fittest, more likely. Don't matter which guns are used during that process, be it bare bones or brass knuckles: the meanest will win.

The ones that will win would have to
1. Survive the initial blast (not be in a city or military base)
2. Survive the ensuing fallout (not be near a city or a military base and be prepared)
3. Survive the hunger that follows the fallout. (as above)

 

[SuAside]

Anarchy in the UK!
And all over the world.

After the bombs fall/after the floods/after the bombs fall and the floods strike, don't expect humans to care too much about how their crops are doing or what the currency is.

It'll be bartering/scavenging/stealing and murdering.

Work? Ha! Some people will be growing their own food, people in the countryside, but the badass mofos from the cities will undoubtedly fuck them up just to take hold of their fertile lands and their crops (another good reason to not own a house and property in the countryside --> most obvious target when the cities run dry).

Agriculture will blossom and bloom after a worldwide catastrophe, but it won't be the original farmers that work the lands - unless they have been enslaved to do so. It'll be the guys with the most guns that own the farms.

Weapons? Survival of the fittest, more likely. Don't matter which guns are used during that process, be it bare bones or brass knuckles: the meanest will win.

Also: rape, rape, rape. After the bombs fall/the floods come and authority has gone berserk, women will be used as napkins. Cum napkins more precisely.

did somebody watch too much "A boy and his Dog"?

awesome movie, that.

 

[Nimrod]

Money today is worhless in itself, just a piece of paper.

That's the scary part, it's not even paper these days, just bits of data in a computer somewhere. When people wake up and suddenly realize that their money doesn't exist anymore, we're likely to have a lousy morning. Practically everything in our society today is based on this imaginary money. So when that goes, so does everything else.

And then when their I-Phone doesn't work, ye gods, it's all over!! </sarcasm>

 

[Blakut]

That's the scary part, it's not even paper these days, just bits of data in a computer somewhere. When people wake up and suddenly realize that their money doesn't exist anymore, we're likely to have a lousy morning. Practically everything in our society today is based on this imaginary money. So when that goes, so does everything else.

Well, AFAIK all the money today is backed up somewhere by real gold.

And then when their I-Phone doesn't work, ye gods, it's all over!! </sarcasm>

Yes, it is something hard to understand. I've seen some documentaries about power blackouts in america, and everybody was so scared and chaos soon followed. In my country when there's a blackout all you can hear is at best a "god damn!" from the neighbour next door.

 

[Wooz]

everybody was so scared and chaos soon followed.

Bullshit. During the recent blackout in NYC, absolutely no chaos ensued. Cops were amazed there wasn't any kind of mass riots nor shop-looting.

In my country when there's a blackout all you can hear is at best a "god damn!" from the neighbour next door.

Ah yes. I forsee Sovz' post: Today in Romania: Guy accidentally cuts own penis off during blackout, mistook it with chicken head.

 

[Blakut]

Bullshit. During the recent blackout in NYC, absolutely no chaos ensued. Cops were amazed there wasn't any kind of mass riots nor shop-looting.

Yeah, well my information source is the media, since i don't live there. But why did the cops expect such things?

Ah yes. I forsee Sovz' post: Today in Romania: Guy accidentally cuts own penis off during blackout, mistook it with chicken head.

A.... what?

 

[Congo Levi]

That actually happened in the countryside and it was no blackout, the guy who did it was drunk... (and probably hungry)

 

[Blakut]

That actually happened in the countryside and it was no blackout, the guy who did it was drunk... (and probably hungry)

In a society that depends heavily on technology (electricity being the one thing the developed nations use), taking that technology away results in chaos, i guess..

 

[alec]

did somebody watch too much "A boy and his Dog"?

awesome movie, that.

I've yet to see that movie. If you know a video shop in Gent that has it, do tell me.

I've always seen this "return to the countryside" as the most likely post-apoc scenario. Even if no bombs fall at all. Cities may have a certain stock of food and beverages, but once those are gone (sold or looted), cities don't have anything to offer, except shelter. Everyone's attention would go to the farmlands outside the cities, 'cause that would be were the food is at. I suppose you could do some farming in cities as well (gardens and parks), but that wouldn't be sufficient to feed an entire city and it would take lots of time to actually grow crops.
Cities need this lifeline with the producing farmlands, and I expect such lifelines (transport) would cease to exist after the bombs fall or whatever kind of apoc scenario.
There was some trouble with truckers recently (a strike in Spain or France, I think it was) and that only lasted a couple of days, but you could clearly see the result of it in the shops: there was no meat in the fridges for two or three days in my local supermarket. I had to eat fucking tofu, actually.
Anyway: I don't think we'll ever have to deal with a nuclear war, to be honest. I think the only "bomb" that will "wipe us out" will be oil depletion. And it'll be a slow, slow death.

 

[Nimrod]

Well, AFAIK all the money today is backed up somewhere by real gold.

"Somewhere" is the key word there. Then there's the question of how much is it worth? Then the REALLY big question is who owns it? Nobody knows.

If technology breaks down, the banks, the taxes (and tax shelters), the investments, the debts, the mortgages, the equity, etc etc etc - it ALL goes away. People will be reduced to what they physically have in their pockets at the time (which generally isn't much) and the value of that paper money will be slightly less than toilet paper. And nobody but nobody gives anything away for free (except maybe Killap) .

Good ol' Bill Gates isn't carrying around a billion dollars in his pocket. He's never seen that much in his life - that money is imaginary with exactly the same physical value of a video game score. It's nothing but bits of computer data, and that goes for everybody. If the computers and databases suddenly disappear, so does society and culture...

<blatant cynicism>
...which, looking around, might not be the worst thing that could happen. At least the world population will drop back down to a reasonable level for the species. Probably very quickly.
<\blatant cynicism>

 

[Blakut]

Good ol' Bill Gates isn't carrying around a billion dollars in his pocket. He's never seen that much in his life - that money is imaginary with exactly the same physical value of a video game score. It's nothing but bits of computer data, and that goes for everybody. If the computers and databases suddenly disappear, so does society and culture...

Well, he does have property, some cars, some electronics. Maybe they're worth 1% of his current wealth, but still, i imagine he would be able to form a little city state after a nuclear war, provided he survives or has time to prepare.

 

[SuAside]

Well, AFAIK all the money today is backed up somewhere by real gold.

haha, oho, wow...

sorry bud, but most countries departed from the gold standard. while most countries have gold and currency reserves, there is no gold standard anymore.

once upon a time, you could walk to your bank or the federal reserve and demand gold for your money. this is no longer true. they're not required to give you anything at all.

I've yet to see that movie. If you know a video shop in Gent that has it, do tell me.

i just ordered my copy from play.com, it took them a while to get it, but they pulled through.

it was like 15 euros, incl delivery. now it's 18.5 euros. you should just order it, no use renting it.