Rosh talks about Bethesda

[SumsoluS]

Got to love a place where someone gets banned for disagreeing. God I love The internet.

But why is it a given to keep SPECIAL? Special was not only hopelessly broken, but far too easy to min/max. It wasnt remotely balanced.

"Critical hit to the eyes for 110 damage" etc etc....Every fight in FO1/2 was a walkover if you took one of the two viable builds for combat.

The ideas behind it were nice, keep the names etc, but the mechanics and implementation were terrible.

Piss off then? You are obviously too simple minded to realise with special, this allowed you to play the game in different ways....its again one of the most important parts that makes fallout what it is, if you dont like it dont play the game and go play a more "balenced game". why are you complaining about a critical hit to the eyes? that is how fallout works?? if it was a walkover did you turn difficulty up on combat and game setting? just imagine playing fallout without a special....it would probably just be a skeleton with no content, no indepth character customisation, hell it would be just like a console game! ! IT WOULDNT WORK DUH

 

[Roshambo]

Got to love a place where someone gets banned for disagreeing. God I love The internet.

You are potentially next for that piece of bait. The reason was not for disagreeing, but in posting flamebait. Much like you have just done. It's amusing that your timing in registering and posting in this thread is quite convenient.

 

[victor]

But why is it a given to keep SPECIAL? Special was not only hopelessly broken, but far too easy to min/max. It wasnt remotely balanced.

"Critical hit to the eyes for 110 damage" etc etc....Every fight in FO1/2 was a walkover if you took one of the two viable builds for combat.

The ideas behind it were nice, keep the names etc, but the mechanics and implementation were terrible.

This is what lots of people say. But I have never, in my gaming carreer (it's very long and construvtive, fyi), seen a better system than S.P.E.C.I.A.L. You got rewards for upping your skills, that were very clear to see. When I play any other RPG, such as Arcanum, changes to my stats aren't as obvious in combat or roleplay. No, it's the greatest system in CRPG history. Change it, and you die.

 

[Ennui]

Yeah fucking right. SPECIAL is necessary for Fallout because that's what it's built around. If you build a combat-oriented character you win fights, no shit. But there's a lot more to SPECIAL than just fights, everything you do in the Fallout games had to do with SPECIAL, from talking to walking to picking locks, SPECIAL came into it.
The mechanics and implementation, by the way, were not terrible. If I train a lot as a sniper, and I shoot someone in the head, I'd expect them to die. So that's what happened. The nice thing is that the same thing could happen to you as well. Too bad that didn't happen too often.

And here I thought the point of a roleplaying game (Even a CRPG) was to immerse yourself in the world, your charecter etc. Not be restricted by the char system (SPECIAL).

Fallout was not build around special, special was just the system they made/used as the background for the skills, levels etc of your chars advancement. FO was a CRPG. CRPGs are by their nature combat-based. Try playing FO (1 or 2) without being combat-orientated. Its frustrating and pointless.

SPECIAL was not 'necessary' for Fallout. It was just a part of the game that could have been done a lot better. Fallout Tactics was a GOOD implementation of SPECIAL because that game is exactly what SPECIAL was built for. Large amounts of combat. Im glad Beth will be replacing it in FO3.

And they WILL be replacing it...it might have the same names of perks etc, but its still not going to BE special.

 

[SumsoluS]

Change it, and you die.

not before dancing around on fire, minigunned then rocketed..

then you can die!

Try playing FO (1 or 2) without being combat-orientated. Its frustrating and pointless.

i found it satisfying when i did thief and planting explosives
the bomb killed them not me!i swear ahem

 

[Brother None]

Fallout was not build around special, special was just the system they made/used as the background for the skills, levels etc of your chars advancement. FO was a CRPG. CRPGs are by their nature combat-based. Try playing FO (1 or 2) without being combat-orientated. Its frustrating and pointless.

...

You must not have played those games often. I've managed to finish Fallout pretty much using only sneak, and both games are incredibly easy to finish with a talkative non-combat character.

You must be thinking of your run-of-the-mill action RPG. Not Fallout

SPECIAL was not 'necessary' for Fallout. It was just a part of the game that could have been done a lot better. Fallout Tactics was a GOOD implementation of SPECIAL because that game is exactly what SPECIAL was built for. Large amounts of combat. Im glad Beth will be replacing it in FO3.

And they WILL be replacing it...it might have the same names of perks etc, but its still not going to BE special.

...Holy shit. Where are you getting this for? SPECIAL was written to replace GURPS not as a combat system, but as a character system

A character system for one of the most open-ended non-linear RPGs ever. Combat was just one factor in oh-so-many

I'm sorry, but I'm getting a distinct impression that you don't know what you're talking about. No offense, but where are you getting this from?

 

[Roshambo]

And here I thought the point of a roleplaying game (Even a CRPG) was to immerse yourself in the world, your charecter etc. Not be restricted by the char system (SPECIAL).

You also play the character, and the game should rely on the character's abilities, not the player's. The SPECIAL system is a stat system, commonly used in CRPGs to represent a character in the game world. I'm sorry you were unaware of what those numbers along the side meant.

Fallout was not build around special, special was just the system they made/used as the background for the skills, levels etc of your chars advancement.

Liar.

FO was a CRPG. CRPGs are by their nature combat-based. Try playing FO (1 or 2) without being combat-orientated. Its frustrating and pointless.

Actually, it's quite possible, if your brain is capable of understanding something a little more complex than hack and slash.

SPECIAL was not 'necessary' for Fallout. It was just a part of the game that could have been done a lot better.

Well, now that you've proven you know little about game design, much less Fallout's design, is there any more idiocy you would care to share?

Fallout Tactics was a GOOD implementation of SPECIAL because that game is exactly what SPECIAL was built for. Large amounts of combat. Im glad Beth will be replacing it in FO3.

Considering that the game was bugged beyond belief and imbalanced as hell, are you done yet in posting ignorant bullshit that has little basis in reality?

And they WILL be replacing it...it might have the same names of perks etc, but its still not going to BE special.

Then it's not going to be a Fallout CRPG, and then what's the point? Congratulations on proving you're ignorant about nearly everything in your post. You're consistent, if anything.

 

[Ennui]

Got to love a place where someone gets banned for disagreeing. God I love The internet.

You are potentially next for that piece of bait. The reason was not for disagreeing, but in posting flamebait. Much like you have just done. It's amusing that your timing in registering and posting in this thread is quite convenient.

Actually that wasnt flamebait, and its not really convenient as Toast asked on the PA forums for someone to come see why he was banned. So yes I turned up here because of him.

But tell me roshambo, what part of either my post, or his do you find flamebait? Because we dont agree that everything about FO1&2 is perfect? Or just because we choose to try and have a discussion about it here?

As for Baboon. I dont think SPECIAL is bad, I just think its incredibly broken for the game that was FO 1&2. Its too biased in some areas. The 'rewards for upping your skills' thing, many other systems are just as visible. Arcanum you are right wasnt so clear...but BG, NWN, any of the major PC RPGs you can instantly notice a difference. (Especially if you choose to view the rolling logs and see exactly whats going on behind the scenes)

But thats a matter of taste. I wouldnt say its the greatest system in CRPG history, possibly one of the best as far as turn-based combat goes. (Personally I would put ToEE's above it, but that was hampered by being too short a game, and too basic a story)

 

[Ennui]

i found it satisfying when i did thief and planting explosives
the bomb killed them not me!i swear ahem

Yes but the point was you still had to kill them didnt you Well not all of them....But the game was more fun if you did.

 

[APTYP]

Umm... You can finish FO1 w/o being a fighter. I wrote a walkthrough for that a while ago. Most games don't let you do that.

And you don't know shit about SPECIAL. Fuck off and good bye, now.

 

[Sander]

And here I thought the point of a roleplaying game (Even a CRPG) was to immerse yourself in the world, your charecter etc. Not be restricted by the char system (SPECIAL).

So, what you're saying is that you should be able to do everything because you shouldn't be limited by the char system.
The point of a char system is to allow your character to grow in a variety of ways, but to make it so that you can't just do everything. There needs to challenge in the game.
Look, do you see any logic in someone with an intelligence of 1 explaining to the master that his race is doomed to fail because it's sterile? Those limits NEED to be there, otherwise you may as well write a book, because the player isn't limited or challenged at all.

Fallout was not build around special, special was just the system they made/used as the background for the skills, levels etc of your chars advancement.

Actually, FO was going to be built around GURPS, but when they couldn't license GURPS they created SPECIAL and built it around that.

FO was a CRPG. CRPGs are by their nature combat-based.

The fuck? That's just plain stupid. CRPGs are, as you yourself said, about immersing in the game world. What if you want to play a pacifist? or someone who's a complete wuss in that world?
There is no need to make a game about combat, that's just a myth people pick up because all they play is Diablo and BG clones.

Try playing FO (1 or 2) without being combat-orientated. Its frustrating and pointless.

No, it isn't. In fact, that's what I'm doing right now. The fact that you're not good enough to do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.
IN fact, the speed run of Fallout 2 was done without any combat at all, IIRC.

SPECIAL was not 'necessary' for Fallout. It was just a part of the game that could have been done a lot better. Fallout Tactics was a GOOD implementation of SPECIAL because that game is exactly what SPECIAL was built for. Large amounts of combat. Im glad Beth will be replacing it in FO3.

Fallout Tactics was the worst implementation of SPECIAL ever, mainly because it fucked up TB and RT by trying to do them both.

And they WILL be replacing it...it might have the same names of perks etc, but its still not going to BE special.

And how do you know that? "They WILL be replacing it." Hah! if they do that, they'll have the entire Fallout community over them. In fact, tha'd probably kill them.
Not to mention the fact that that would be pure betrayal towards the people who created Fallout in the first place, and it would be completely unnecessary. There's no point in changing that system, sure, it needs to be tweaked, it isn't perfect, but changing just *because* is completely stupid and just costs more work for something that isn't needed.

 

[SumsoluS]

SumsoluS wrote:
i found it satisfying when i did thief and planting explosives
the bomb killed them not me!i swear ahem


Yes but the point was you still had to kill them didnt you Well not all of them....But the game was more fun if you did.

game was fun sneaking around, stealing from dangerously armed guards. i did do one character just a total thief good at talking and i enjoyed that character immensely. it was possible to avoid enemy and i did so often.you get experience for stealing, lockpicking so you didnt have to kill to get exp. if you dont enjoy that style fine! i did many forms of character and they all interested me. fallout let me BE a thief and cowardy unlike say in NWN, you dont get experience for sorting traps and locks and you were a fighter regardless being a rogue. thats what fallout offers me MILLIONS OF POSSIBILITES!

 

[Roshambo]

Actually that wasnt flamebait,

Maybe you need your memory fixed to remember what you wrote.

and its not really convenient as Toast asked on the PA forums for someone to come see why he was banned. So yes I turned up here because of him.

Funny that it turned out to be for "disagreeing", as you've incorrectly assumed, much like your many other incorrect assumptions about Fallout and its design. Some of them have been laughable, others downright worthy of being known as a product of Arkansas inbreeding.

But tell me roshambo, what part of either my post, or his do you find flamebait? Because we dont agree that everything about FO1&2 is perfect? Or just because we choose to try and have a discussion about it here?

The flamebait was the reason why he was banned. Mainly, he was banned because he, like you, displayed absolutely NO FUCKING CLUE as to how, why, or to the details in regards to Fallout's development, and you kept posting ignorant, incorrect shit as "fact". It didn't help that he mouth-stuffed me, after I had pointed out, at length, my views on the subject.

No, don't bother to try and bullshit further.

 

[Koki]

i'm just gonna add that in post-apocalyptic world where are more Raiders than normal people it's pretty logical that you will have to fight sooner or layer. or run.

 

[Ennui]

You also play the character, and the game should rely on the character's abilities, not the player's. The SPECIAL system is a stat system, commonly used in CRPGs to represent a character in the game world. I'm sorry you were unaware of what those numbers along the side meant.

Er no, any game is supposed to rely on the ability and skill of the person playing it. Not the pieces. SPECIAL is a level/stat based system its true, but give two players identical charecters and they will play completely differently. Or they should. If you are forced by your charecter into only playing a certain way, then you end up with cookie-cutter identical charecters. Not so bad in a singple player RPG I admit. But very few mmorpgs have escaped this problem.

Well, now that you've proven you know little about game design, much less Fallout's design, is there any more idiocy you would care to share?

Perhaps you could explain rather than resorting to insults? SPECIAL is just a system, it could have been any number of systems and FO would still have been a great game. They could have used bloody D20 and just renamed it all to fit the universe, likewise any other number of generic PnP systems. (I would point out now though, that while many PnP systems can be converted to computer quite easily, the same cannot be said going the other way. SPECIAL is virtually unplayable by PnP standards due to the stupid amount of calculations needed)

Then it's not going to be a Fallout CRPG, and then what's the point? Congratulations on proving you're ignorant about nearly everything in your post. You're consistent, if anything.

Whats the point? Well none from your point of view, since its clear from your many posts that a)its going to be a failure b)you wont accept it as a Fallout game, and c)everything about 1&2 was great and nothing can be said against them.

 

[MrMarcus]

Yes but the point was you still had to kill them didnt you Well not all of them....But the game was more fun if you did.

No it wasn't - the most fun I had was playing through trying to not kill anything at all, even the stupid rats in the V13 cavern. It's too easy and too expected to run through guns blazing like some action-movie addict. And there's more than enough shooters on the market to cater to that market.

FALLOUT DOES NOT BELONG IN THAT MARKET.

Chucky & Herve learned that lesson the hard way when FoPoS bombed hard. If Bethesda remain insistent on making the FP perspective the core for the new Fallout, essentially turning it into a shooter, they will learn the same lesson when it hits them in the balance sheets.

Er no, any game is supposed to rely on the ability and skill of the person playing it. Not the pieces. SPECIAL is a level/stat based system its true, but give two players identical charecters and they will play completely differently. Or they should. If you are forced by your charecter into only playing a certain way, then you end up with cookie-cutter identical charecters. Not so bad in a singple player RPG I admit. But very few mmorpgs have escaped this problem.

We're not talking about MMORPGs are we? A single-player RPG is the topic of discussion.

SPECIAL is just a system, it could have been any number of systems and FO would still have been a great game. They could have used bloody D20 and just renamed it all to fit the universe, likewise any other number of generic PnP systems.

SPECIAL is the system specifically designed and used in Fallout. Can you give me one solid pertinent reson why anything else should be introduced? And FUCK d20.

 

[Brother None]

Er no, any game is supposed to rely on the ability and skill of the person playing it. Not the pieces. SPECIAL is a level/stat based system its true, but give two players identical charecters and they will play completely differently. Or they should. If you are forced by your charecter into only playing a certain way, then you end up with cookie-cutter identical charecters. Not so bad in a singple player RPG I admit. But very few mmorpgs have escaped this problem.

MMORPGS?!!?!?!

In any case, if you ever played Fallout, and you obviously didn't, you would remember that you can create your own character at the start. That's where you make the decisions what you want to play. You want to go talkative? Pick Intelligence, Charisma and the Speech skill. You want to go thief? Pick Perception, Agility and Lock Pick and Sneak skills.

And so on and so forth. That was one of the things that made Fallout special, total freedom to make who you wanted at the start.

Also, CRPGs classically don't rely on the skill of the player in combat. How good the figure does in combat, in conversation etc. depends on his stats, and his stats depend on how good the player is. You're confusing CRPGs with games like Diablo and Morrowind.

 

[Ennui]

And how do you know that? "They WILL be replacing it." Hah! if they do that, they'll have the entire Fallout community over them. In fact, tha'd probably kill them.
Not to mention the fact that that would be pure betrayal towards the people who created Fallout in the first place, and it would be completely unnecessary. There's no point in changing that system, sure, it needs to be tweaked, it isn't perfect, but changing just *because* is completely stupid and just costs more work for something that isn't needed.

Its not going to be the same game, Beth have clearly said that they wont be making an isometric RPG. Which means (given Beth's history) It will either be first person, or 3rd Person. SPECIAL couldnt survive transition to First Person. It just wouldnt be possible unless they pretty much automated most of it and turned it into an Action RPG a la KOTOR. Might fare better with 3rd. But honestly, if you were Beth, just got the rights to make (but none of the actual code) fo3, why would you hamper yourself trying to fit in an old needlessly complicated system? You would start again and use the background material.

 

[Sander]

Er no, any game is supposed to rely on the ability and skill of the person playing it. Not the pieces. SPECIAL is a level/stat based system its true, but give two players identical charecters and they will play completely differently.

Look, you're not getting this. The point of any statistical system is to give the character an identity and abilities of its own and NOT make these ability rely on the player. Instead of testing the players reflexes, there is initiative, for instance.

Or they should. If you are forced by your charecter into only playing a certain way, then you end up with cookie-cutter identical charecters. Not so bad in a singple player RPG I admit. But very few mmorpgs have escaped this problem.

No-one is forced to play in a certain way. That's the entire freedom of Fallout, you can make ANY character you want, and it'll probably WORK as well. That's the fun: complete freedom to WHATEVER YOU WANT. Fallout is the least restrictive game I have ever played, even Morrowind was more restrictive because you had to follow the story to get to the ending.

Perhaps you could explain rather than resorting to insults? SPECIAL is just a system, it could have been any number of systems and FO would still have been a great game. They could have used bloody D20 and just renamed it all to fit the universe, likewise any other number of generic PnP systems. (I would point out now though, that while many PnP systems can be converted to computer quite easily, the same cannot be said going the other way. SPECIAL is virtually unplayable by PnP standards due to the stupid amount of calculations needed)

So? This is not a PnP game, is it? This is a PC game, and that's exactly why using a PnP system actually makes little sense.
But nevermind that, I really don't get you. What is it you don't like about the SPECIAL system? The fact that when you focus on combat you actually *gasp* kill your opponents? No shit, maybe that's why you're focusing on combat.
Or the fact that how intelligent your characters matters in what he can say? I really don't understand what you're saying, and you're clearly not exhibiting any form of knowledge pertaining to the SPECIAL system.
The point is, however, that the freedom the SPECIAL system gives you is the entire point of Fallout. I will admit that it is just a system, it is. But what you don't seem to get is that the system works fine, and it only needs a bit of tweaking. Why in heaven's name would they want to change a system that is balanced and working properly? it doesn't make sense, because it'll only cost them money and time that could've been spent in much more prosperous ways.

Whats the point? Well none from your point of view, since its clear from your many posts that a)its going to be a failure b)you wont accept it as a Fallout game, and c)everything about 1&2 was great and nothing can be said against them.

And this is what they call trolling. For a reason.

We haven't said that we won't accept it as a Fallout game, we have, however, said that we want SPECIAL in it. WOw. No shit. But Bethesda hasn't said anything about using SPECIALl or not using SPECIAL.

Its not going to be the same game, Beth have clearly said that they wont be making an isometric RPG. Which means (given Beth's history) It will either be first person, or 3rd Person. SPECIAL couldnt survive transition to First Person. It just wouldnt be possible unless they pretty much automated most of it and turned it into an Action RPG a la KOTOR. Might fare better with 3rd. But honestly, if you were Beth, just got the rights to make (but none of the actual code) fo3, why would you hamper yourself trying to fit in an old needlessly complicated system? You would start again and use the background material.

Actually, they haven't said that all. They keep claiming that nothing is set yet.
And I now see that Rosh is right: you're clueless. Really, you don't seem to get that making it 3rd person doesn't mean that SPECIAL can't survive, SPECIAL can survive, if they make it the way it's supposed to be made: turn based, mouse clicking, and not in a Morrowind style, which is, bythe way, what was being said: this is not going to be Morrowind.
You, Ennui, are not only trolling, but also bullshitting. You clearly fail to grasp this one simple point: work already done is work you don't need to do again. Simple. Very very simple.

 

[Roshambo]

Er no, any game is supposed to rely on the ability and skill of the person playing it. Not the pieces.

Hell, now you're clueless as to what makes up an RPG and why stats exist. I'm not surprised.

SPECIAL is a level/stat based system its true, but give two players identical charecters and they will play completely differently. Or they should. If you are forced by your charecter into only playing a certain way, then you end up with cookie-cutter identical charecters. Not so bad in a singple player RPG I admit. But very few mmorpgs have escaped this problem.

You're starting to sound like you're getting a few concepts of Fallout's design. Keep trying.

Perhaps you could explain rather than resorting to insults? SPECIAL is just a system, it could have been any number of systems and FO would still have been a great game. They could have used bloody D20 and just renamed it all to fit the universe, likewise any other number of generic PnP systems. (I would point out now though, that while many PnP systems can be converted to computer quite easily, the same cannot be said going the other way.

Now this is painfully pointing out that you STILL have no clue as to what SPECIAL's design is. It's not just a D&D copycat system, it's a bit different than that. It suits the post-apocalyptic setting moreso than the D20 system. Changing it now serves no purpose and would be one of the major points to lose the interest of fans.

SPECIAL is virtually unplayable by PnP standards due to the stupid amount of calculations needed)

More ignorance! Damn, kid, when will your ignorance spree ever end? You might want to explain this to those who play Fallout PnP, I'm sure they'll be interested to hear your naive assumptions.

Whats the point? Well none from your point of view, since its clear from your many posts that a)its going to be a failure b)you wont accept it as a Fallout game, and c)everything about 1&2 was great and nothing can be said against them.

Now you're mouth-stuffing, too, when I've made my views painfully clear and at length as to what would be likely if certain things were and were not kept. It is my intent to steer Bethesda into paying attention to what kills game series off, which is changing the formula without real cause. The fans didn't buy a sequel to receive a spin-off.

Instead, you've painted up this cariacature of me and what I mean and that is now your basis upon reality. I'm sorry, kid, but go play the victim elsewhere. I'm not going to entertain more of your juvenile prattle and ignorant wasting of bandwidth that is doing nothing but derailing the thread and proving that you are arude little newbie shit and didn't bother to observe basic netiquette either.

But honestly, if you were Beth, just got the rights to make (but none of the actual code) fo3, why would you hamper yourself trying to fit in an old needlessly complicated system? You would start again and use the background material.

More fun. That system isn't really complicated. Maybe for you to understand, but the rest of us understand it just fine and we have no problem with how it works, mainly because it was how Fallout was intended to be designed. As a CRPG of the real definition, a P&P RPG on the computer. If that is lost, then...well, read the full title of Fallout and get a clue.