Sander and requiem discuss SPECIAL part 2

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Eh, I kind of have to disagree with that. In Fallout 2 it was way, way too easy to get a super character even at a low level, and then use things like power armors advanced strength, the medical enhancements, and various other methods to basically make yourself a superman. If this is an attempt to make the game slightly more difficult by giving you less starting power then it might be a good move.

Wouldn't it be better in that case to change/remove such features as the medical enhancements, rather than playing around with the rule system? For instance the power armour, it's described as a walking tank so it was a bit silly to be able to walk around with one suit (never mind two or three) in your inventory. If only they had treated it like a vehicle that you entered and moved around in (like the panzerkliens in Silent Storm). A vehicle with it's own inventory constraints, and strength/damage modifiers which affect which weapons you used or gave you the equivalent of a powerfist attack without actually changing your stats. Or at least included a negative hit point modifier to counter act the strength enhancement.

It could still be an awful move as well, but I don't think it's nesscessarily gutting the system. Unbalancing it, sure, but that depends on whether you think the original system was perfectly balanced.

A system doesn't have to be perfectly balanced to be unbalanced by changes. In fact you'd have to take greater care with changing an imperfect structure to avoid toppling it.

I'm not reay to string them up for 7 stat points.

It's not just about the 7 character points though is it, since they affect just about everything to do with your character creation.

 

[Sander]

Fact is, though, that SPECIAL did require balancing, either through balancing the system or applying skills more equally throughout the game.
Removing those 7 character points could work, since we don't know the rest of the changes and how the game reacts to the stats. However, it seems to me to be a bit arbitrary.

 

[Sorrow]

Wouldn't it be better in that case to change/remove such features as the medical enhancements, rather than playing around with the rule system?

Why remove the medical enhnancements at all? Becoming a superhuman thanks to medical enchancements that are expensive and time consuming is an interesting theme. Lets remember that it's a game about a lone wanderer that has a lot to do. Such person should be an exceptional character.

They are not a problem unless someone abuses the game by powergaming, metagaming and SFLing. But then it's the players fault, not game mechanic's.

A vehicle with it's own inventory constraints, and strength/damage modifiers which affect which weapons you used or gave you the equivalent of a powerfist attack without actually changing your stats. Or at least included a negative hit point modifier to counter act the strength enhancement.

What's wrong with the power armor strength enchancement? The point of the PA is that it enchances wearer's stats and is hard to find. On the other hand, maybe a possibility of enchancing strength beyond 10 would reward the players that invested their points in strength better...

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Fact is, though, that SPECIAL did require balancing, either through balancing the system or applying skills more equally throughout the game.
Removing those 7 character points could work, since we don't know the rest of the changes and how the game reacts to the stats. However, it seems to me to be a bit arbitrary.

Why remove the medical enhnancements at all? Becoming a superhuman thanks to medical enchancements that are expensive and time consuming is an interesting theme. Lets remember that it's a game about a lone wanderer that has a lot to do. Such person should be an exceptional character.

They are not a problem unless someone abuses the game by powergaming, metagaming and SFLing. But then it's the players fault, not game mechanic's.

My point is the system works, has been proved to work, even in Tactics. If there's any imbalance it's in the application of the system. More quests that would give work for non combat skills would be great but would have nothing to do with the character stats. It's more the drugs and medical enhancers (along with gifted) that allowed you to concentrate points in a couple of skills and then power up the rest as needed, that allow for power gaming. Those can be balanced by having less available and more adverse side affects not by lowering your starting stats.

What's wrong with the power armor strength enchancement? The point of the PA is that it enchances wearer's stats and is hard to find. On the other hand, maybe a possibility of enchancing strength beyond 10 would reward the players that invested their points in strength better...

Does it need to affect your character sheet though? You can give weapons requirements such as high strength or wearing PA. Objects that can only be moved by someone with mechanical aids.

 

[Sander]

My point is the system works, has been proved to work, even in Tactics. If there's any imbalance it's in the application of the system. More quests that would give work for non combat skills would be great but would have nothing to do with the character stats. It's more the drugs and medical enhancers (along with gifted) that allowed you to concentrate points in a couple of skills and then power up the rest as needed, that allow for power gaming. Those can be balanced by having less available and more adverse side affects not by lowering your starting stats.

That wasn't my point. The point is that not all skills and stats are equally strong. Hence the system is unbalanced. This could be part of a bigger fix, although it looks rather arbitrary to me.

Does it need to affect your character sheet though? You can give weapons requirements such as high strength or wearing PA. Objects that can only be moved by someone with mechanical aids.

It makes sense to give a strength bonus for a mechanical armor. What's more, it makes sense to give it an upper limit as well.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

That wasn't my point. The point is that not all skills and stats are equally strong. Hence the system is unbalanced. This could be part of a bigger fix, although it looks rather arbitrary to me.

Each has it's role to play, the stats are fairly well balanced. Any system will have the same problem, those stats that affect combat tend to garner the most attention.

Agility is the strongest due to so many skills using it and solely it for calculating the formulas. That could easily be fixed by adding some of the other stats to the mix. Imbalance in the skills though is purely down to the split between combat and quests. Energy weapons was the only really superfluous skill, the aiming and firing could of been handled by the other combat skills and the technical side by science and repair, therefor giving both those skills more importance.

Changing the number of character points available wouldn't make the powerful stats any less so. Those who tend to max out their favorite stats would continue to do so. Having less points available would in fact further widen the divide between those stats people perceive as useful and those they see as weak.

It's kind of harsh to say a system was unbalanced because the designers were unable to make full use of it in the confines of a single player computer game.

Though this seems to be a moot point as their SPECIAL looks to be in name only. 7 less character points, less skills, no traits (?) and 170/170 hp whilst level 1 (10/1000 exp) with only 5 strength and 5 endurance.

It makes sense to give a strength bonus for a mechanical armor. What's more, it makes sense to give it an upper limit as well.

And it also makes sense to have a flag, on weapons or other heavy objects, that requires either extremely high strength, super mutant genes or power armour. Mechanical armour isn't a drug or implant that changes your character physically so why should it affect your character's stats.

 

[Sander]

Each has it's role to play, the stats are fairly well balanced. Any system will have the same problem, those stats that affect combat tend to garner the most attention.

Agility is the strongest due to so many skills using it and solely it for calculating the formulas. That could easily be fixed by adding some of the other stats to the mix. Imbalance in the skills though is purely down to the split between combat and quests. Energy weapons was the only really superfluous skill, the aiming and firing could of been handled by the other combat skills and the technical side by science and repair, therefor giving both those skills more importance.

Changing the number of character points available wouldn't make the powerful stats any less so. Those who tend to max out their favorite stats would continue to do so. Having less points available would in fact further widen the divide between those stats people perceive as useful and those they see as weak.

It's kind of harsh to say a system was unbalanced because the designers were unable to make full use of it in the confines of a single player computer game.

No, because the system was specifically designed for the game. Science, for instance, is heavily underpowered as utilised in the game.

And it also makes sense to have a flag, on weapons or other heavy objects, that requires either extremely high strength, super mutant genes or power armour. Mechanical armour isn't a drug or implant that changes your character physically so why should it affect your character's stats.

It only affects your strength. Because, you know, you now have a mechanical armor that aids with everything you do physically. That's why it affects your strength stat.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

No, because the system was specifically designed for the game. Science, for instance, is heavily underpowered as utilised in the game.

And so budgets and deadlines have nothing to do with it? It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?

As it is Science doesn't have that many applications in a Post Apocalyptic world unless you turn the game into a survival sim. Each skill has a use, never mind that some are under used that still has nothing to do with changing the number of stat points.

It only affects your strength. Because, you know, you now have a mechanical armor that aids with everything you do physically. That's why it affects your strength stat.

My brain might be fried, my memory corrupted by FOT but adding to your strength stat changes your hitpoints. Something mechanical armour should do.

Though again it's all moot, as it's SPECIAL in name only.

 

[Sander]

And so budgets and deadlines have nothing to do with it? It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?

Erwhat?
Please don't twist my words. I said that the system, as it was designed for the game, was unbalanced. I don't see how I'm offending anyone with that statement, and your railing against me as if I accused the developers of some great evil is fucking ridiculous.

As it is Science doesn't have that many applications in a Post Apocalyptic world unless you turn the game into a survival sim. Each skill has a use, never mind that some are under used that still has nothing to do with changing the number of stat points.

Ehm, yeah, which was why the system is flawed as is. Either science needs to be used more, or it needs to be scrapped from the system. Otherwise, the system is unbalanced. Hell, that's pretty much the definition of unbalanced.
And yes, I've noted before that this has little to do with changing the stat points.

]My brain might be fried, my memory corrupted by FOT but adding to your strength stat changes your hitpoints. Something mechanical armour should do.

Yes, it does. That's about the *only* thing that upping the strength stat would not do entirely realistically. And even that can be explained by the Power Armors high capability for withstanding destruction.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Please don't twist my words. I said that the system, as it was designed for the game, was unbalanced. I don't see how I'm offending anyone with that statement, and your railing against me as if I accused the developers of some great evil is fucking ridiculous.

Now who is twisting words? Stop being ridiculous I never accused you of such a thing, but is it the systems fault if it's under used? You can do more than play games on a pc, but if that's all you use it for is it unbalanced because it's other applications go untouched?

Otherwise, the system is unbalanced. Hell, that's pretty much the definition of unbalanced.

Again the system isn't unbalanced but the implementation is. If it was a pnp system then we could make up stuff to do for each skill on the fly, but that's hard if not impossible to do in a single player computer game. Unless you add in random generated quests. Just because it was designed for the game doesn't mean it's unbalanced if budgets and time disallowed making all skills equal. Again the only superfluous skill is energy weapons but it's inclusion could be argued as keeping the combat formulas from getting too complex.

But until a sequel or more likely a mod is made that gives equal emphasis for each skill then the system has never been truly tested. So it shouldn't be labelled as unbalanced and certainly should not be revised prematurely.

]My brain might be fried, my memory corrupted by FOT but adding to your strength stat changes your hitpoints. Something mechanical armour should do.

My bad that should read 'something mechanical armour shouldn't do.'

Yes, it does. That's about the *only* thing that upping the strength stat would not do entirely realistically. And even that can be explained by the Power Armors high capability for withstanding destruction.

Which is already catered for with ac and dt/dr values.

 

[Sander]

Now who is twisting words? Stop being ridiculous I never accused you of such a thing,

I wonder what else you want to call this:
"It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?"

but is it the systems fault if it's under used? You can do more than play games on a pc, but if that's all you use it for is it unbalanced because it's other applications go untouched?

Yes, because as I said, the system was designed with a specific goal in mind.
It's all about context. Any system can have an environment designed for it in which it is balanced.

Again the system isn't unbalanced but the implementation is. If it was a pnp system then we could make up stuff to do for each skill on the fly, but that's hard if not impossible to do in a single player computer game. Unless you add in random generated quests. Just because it was designed for the game doesn't mean it's unbalanced if budgets and time disallowed making all skills equal. Again the only superfluous skill is energy weapons but it's inclusion could be argued as keeping the combat formulas from getting too complex.

But until a sequel or more likely a mod is made that gives equal emphasis for each skill then the system has never been truly tested. So it shouldn't be labelled as unbalanced and certainly should not be revised prematurely.

Again, don't be silly. By that criterium *any* system could be balanced by virtue of the environment it is tested in.

 

[Sorrow]

Err...
Why should all skills be equal?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I wonder what else you want to call this:
"It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?"

Twisting of my words my dear Sander, I said don't blame the system because they weren't able to make full use of it, just because it was designed for the game doesn't mean they had time to add quests to make each skill equally utilised. That makes Fallout unbalanced not SPECIAL. After all it was implemented virtually at the last minute. Do you really think if they had of used GURPS every skill would of had equal footing? Science doesn't get used much, but it does have it's uses and it's not compulsory, nor do you need to waste many skill points on it since you can boost it with books.

Yes, because as I said, the system was designed with a specific goal in mind.
It's all about context. Any system can have an environment designed for it in which it is balanced.

SPECIAL works in Fallout the environment it was designed for, what goals does it fail? It shows the strength of the system that it works so well.

Again, don't be silly. By that criterium *any* system could be balanced by virtue of the environment it is tested in.

Don't be a nincompoop, if you were testing an off road vehicle you'd need to test it off road at some point. But if you only tested it for forward drive you'd have incomplete results.

 

[Sander]

Err...
Why should all skills be equal?

Because otherwise skill points put into one skill are worth significantly less than when they're put into another skill. It's called balancing.

Twisting of my words my dear Sander, I said don't blame the system because they weren't able to make full use of it,

No, you said 'Don't blame the designers, they had deadlines!!' which is ridiculous, since this wasn't an assault on the designers. It was a remark about SPECIAL, that isn't invalidated by the work of the designers or their deadlines.

just because it was designed for the game doesn't mean they had time to add quests to make each skill equally utilised. That makes Fallout unbalanced not SPECIAL. After all it was implemented virtually at the last minute. Do you really think if they had of used GURPS every skill would of had equal footing? Science doesn't get used much, but it does have it's uses and it's not compulsory, nor do you need to waste many skill points on it since you can boost it with books.

So? It's stell not as useful as most other skills, and is hence underpowered, making the system flawed. The same goes for first aid and a few other skills. Yes, you could design an environment in which that was perfectly balanced. However, we need to look at it in the environment it was meant to be specifically used in: Fallout. SPECIAL wasn't designed as a big, catch-all P&P system. It was designed solely for the purpose of serving as Fallout's system. And hence, it is unbalanced.

Also, 'of' is not the same as 'have'.

SPECIAL works in Fallout the environment it was designed for, what goals does it fail? It shows the strength of the system that it works so well.

*sigh*
No, it doesn't. It's not balanced properly. Hence, it fails the goal of *being balanced for the game*.

Don't be a nincompoop, if you were testing an off road vehicle you'd need to test it off road at some point. But if you only tested it for forward drive you'd have incomplete results.

Ehm, yes. And since SPECIAL is a system designed for Fallout it's natural environment (it's 'off-road' if you will), is Fallout. It is *not* a big, catch-all P&P system.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Because otherwise skill points put into one skill are worth significantly less than when they're put into another skill. It's called balancing.

Not true at all, since the skills aren't compulsory. It would be a different matter entirely if a skill was required to continue or complete a game and only had one, two or no uses beforehand (or after).

No, you said 'Don't blame the designers, they had deadlines!!' which is ridiculous, since this wasn't an assault on the designers. It was a remark about SPECIAL, that isn't invalidated by the work of the designers or their deadlines.

Quit with the selective reading Sander it doesn't make you appear half as clever as you think it does. I originally said,

It's kind of harsh to say a system was unbalanced because the designers were unable to make full use of it in the confines of a single player computer game.

To which you replied,

No, because the system was specifically designed for the game. Science, for instance, is heavily underpowered as utilised in the game.

My reply, admittably heated.

And so budgets and deadlines have nothing to do with it? It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?

To which you replied.

Please don't twist my words. I said that the system, as it was designed for the game, was unbalanced. I don't see how I'm offending anyone with that statement, and your railing against me as if I accused the developers of some great evil is fucking ridiculous.

At no point was I suggesting you were attacking the devs. I've already explained what I meant. That budgets and deadlines were to blame, which doesn't make it a bad system but an imperfect game.

So? It's stell not as useful as most other skills, and is hence underpowered, making the system flawed. The same goes for first aid and a few other skills. Yes, you could design an environment in which that was perfectly balanced. However, we need to look at it in the environment it was meant to be specifically used in: Fallout. SPECIAL wasn't designed as a big, catch-all P&P system. It was designed solely for the purpose of serving as Fallout's system. And hence, it is unbalanced.

Yes it was designed for Fallout not as a catch all p&p system, but it was designed to emulate and replace a catch-all p&p system. At the late stage it was added what is more likely? That they designed SPECIAL and decided to add a few arbitrary skills and then made a couple of quests and items for them? Or did they already have quests in place and needed a system that would allow the player to obtain certain already set optional goals?

If the latter SPECIAL is certainly not unbalanced.

Also, 'of' is not the same as 'have'.

WTF?

*sigh*
No, it doesn't. It's not balanced properly. Hence, it fails the goal of *being balanced for the game*.

Again the system is balanced the game isn't.

Ehm, yes. And since SPECIAL is a system designed for Fallout it's natural environment (it's 'off-road' if you will), is Fallout. It is *not* a big, catch-all P&P system.

See above, but SPECIAL has never been properly utilised, never had a chance to live up to it's full potential. You don't scrap a partially tested system and rebuild it from the ground up if what has been tested has been proven to work.

 

[Sander]

Not true at all, since the skills aren't compulsory. It would be a different matter entirely if a skill was required to continue or complete a game and only had one, two or no uses beforehand (or after).

This is irrelevant. A system is balanced when every choice made is equally powerful.

Quit with the selective reading Sander it doesn't make you appear half as clever as you think it does. I originally said,

It's kind of harsh to say a system was unbalanced because the designers were unable to make full use of it in the confines of a single player computer game.

To which you replied,

No, because the system was specifically designed for the game. Science, for instance, is heavily underpowered as utilised in the game.

My reply, admittably heated.

And so budgets and deadlines have nothing to do with it? It's all the fault of the developers making a system and not using it?

To which you replied.

Please don't twist my words. I said that the system, as it was designed for the game, was unbalanced. I don't see how I'm offending anyone with that statement, and your railing against me as if I accused the developers of some great evil is fucking ridiculous.

At no point was I suggesting you were attacking the devs. I've already explained what I meant. That budgets and deadlines were to blame, which doesn't make it a bad system but an imperfect game.

Again, this is irrelevant because I wasn't talking about the causes behind it being unbalanced. I was merely commenting on the fact that it *is* unbalanced. How it came to be unbalanced is rather irrelevant to that.

In any case, I probably misread your heated reply.

Yes it was designed for Fallout not as a catch all p&p system, but it was designed to emulate and replace a catch-all p&p system. At the late stage it was added what is more likely? That they designed SPECIAL and decided to add a few arbitrary skills and then made a couple of quests and items for them? Or did they already have quests in place and needed a system that would allow the player to obtain certain already set optional goals?

That's a false dichotomy. They created a system not to be a complete emulation of GURPS, nor did they create a system and then just added a few skills for the hell of it. They created a system that would work with what they already had in place.

If the latter SPECIAL is certainly not unbalanced.

Hunh?
No, seriously, hunh? This makes zero sense. You seem to be saying that if SPECIAL was designed for Fallout, it cannot be unbalanced. Which makes no sense.

WTF?

You (and many other Americans, fpr that matter) have a tendency to use 'of' instead of 'have' in sentences. Eg. 'he should of done that'. Which is annoying as shit to read, and faulty.

See above, but SPECIAL has never been properly utilised, never had a chance to live up to it's full potential. You don't scrap a partially tested system and rebuild it from the ground up if what has been tested has been proven to work.

Where did I speak about rebuilding it from the ground up? At its core, SPECIAL is a very good system. However, some of its skills and other quirks do require balancing. That's all.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

This is irrelevant. A system is balanced when every choice made is equally powerful.

Not true it is balanced if every skill has a use, and a chance to be used. If balance relied on every choice being equal then no game system is going to be balanced as some skills are never going to be as important as others. You are never going to be able to complete Fallout by just using First Aid, Gambling and Traps. That doesn't make those skills worthless if they add to the role playing.

That's a false dichotomy. They created a system not to be a complete emulation of GURPS,

I never said that it was meant to be a complete emulation of GURPs.

nor did they create a system and then just added a few skills for the hell of it.

And I didn't say that either.

They created a system that would work with what they already had in place.

Which was my point exactly. You've been saying, sorry I've read your posts as saying SPECIAL was designed for Fallout, not all skills are used equally or to the same effect so therefor SPECIAL is unbalanced. Which is not true, it makes Fallout unbalanced.

Hunh?
No, seriously, hunh? This makes zero sense. You seem to be saying that if SPECIAL was designed for Fallout, it cannot be unbalanced. Which makes no sense.

Yes it does make sense, does the system allow you to do everything you need to in Fallout? Yes it does, there's not one quest or encounter that can't be tackled with one of the available skills.

You (and many other Americans, fpr that matter) have a tendency to use 'of' instead of 'have' in sentences. Eg. 'he should of done that'. Which is annoying as shit to read, and faulty.

One I'm not American, and I left school over twenty years ago, I don't write professionally or socially (outside of forums) there's probably 101 grammatical errors I make everyday online again so WTF? Cheap attempt to score points from an argument.

Where did I speak about rebuilding it from the ground up? At its core, SPECIAL is a very good system. However, some of its skills and other quirks do require balancing. That's all.

Balancing the skills which should primarily come from the usage. Balancing gifted, small frame and bruiser by locking traits until you've allocated all your character points. And if needed to go back and change your stats locking the character points until you've unselected your chosen traits. Balancing drugs and enhancers by limiting their availability and increasing the side effects. None of which require an actual change to SPECIAL but from it's environment.

 

[Sander]

Not true it is balanced if every skill has a use, and a chance to be used. If balance relied on every choice being equal then no game system is going to be balanced as some skills are never going to be as important as others. You are never going to be able to complete Fallout by just using First Aid, Gambling and Traps. That doesn't make those skills worthless if they add to the role playing.

It makes them less useful than other skills that cost just as much to upgrade. Which is almost the definition of unbalanced.

Which was my point exactly. You've been saying, sorry I've read your posts as saying SPECIAL was designed for Fallout, not all skills are used equally or to the same effect so therefor SPECIAL is unbalanced. Which is not true, it makes Fallout unbalanced.

And again, whether it is Fallout or SPECIAL that is unbalanced is irrelevant since SPECIAL was designed specifically for Fallout. You can go about fixing this unbalance in two ways: balance the system, or have the game utilise the system differently. Both ways are equally valid.

Yes it does make sense, does the system allow you to do everything you need to in Fallout? Yes it does, there's not one quest or encounter that can't be tackled with one of the available skills.

Yet that doesn't make it a *balanced* system, it only makes it a *usable* system.

One I'm not American,

I didn't say you were. Might've chosen my words poorly, though.

and I left school over twenty years ago, I don't write professionally or socially (outside of forums) there's probably 101 grammatical errors I make everyday online again so WTF? Cheap attempt to score points from an argument.

I'm not trying to score points or 'win' an argument on cheap shots. I just, honestly, cannot stand the use of 'of' instead of 'have'. Mainly because it is very annoying to read. That's all there is to it.

Balancing the skills which should primarily come from the usage. Balancing gifted, small frame and bruiser by locking traits until you've allocated all your character points. And if needed to go back and change your stats locking the character points until you've unselected your chosen traits. Balancing drugs and enhancers by limiting their availability and increasing the side effects. None of which require an actual change to SPECIAL but from it's environment.

As I've said: any system can have an environment crafted around it in which it acts as a balanced system. You can also balance the system itself instead of changing the environment around it, which is often a much better choice since that is generally easier to do.
Also, I'd say that those 'locking' fixes are changes to SPECIAL itself, but meh. Not really relevant.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

It makes them less useful than other skills that cost just as much to upgrade. Which is almost the definition of unbalanced.

Less useful isn't the same as unbalanced though. Skills can be advanced without spending skill points a science book can't be used to improve any other skill. You have valuable skills and minor skills, and you can decided which is which and affect the point cost by using the tags.

And again, whether it is Fallout or SPECIAL that is unbalanced is irrelevant since SPECIAL was designed specifically for Fallout. You can go about fixing this unbalance in two ways: balance the system, or have the game utilise the system differently. Both ways are equally valid.

Not true. If you make fundamental changes to a system then you aren't necessarily balancing it.

Ehm, yeah, which was why the system is flawed as is. Either science needs to be used more, or it needs to be scrapped from the system. Otherwise, the system is unbalanced. Hell, that's pretty much the definition of unbalanced.

If we scrap science can we then still complete the science checks in Fallout? Nope, we'd have to remove those as well, wouldn't you then still be crafting the environment to fit the system. Not balancing the system to fit the environment.

Also, I'd say that those 'locking' fixes are changes to SPECIAL itself, but meh. Not really relevant.

It fixes an exploit, the description of Gifted doesn't say 'here's 7 free points to spend as you will at the cost of...'. If you made that change to Fallout it wouldn't require other changes to the game or the system though it would affect how you play. Taking away skills means changing the environment, if you replace the wheels on a motorcycle with pontoons and change the engine to drive a propeller you wouldn't be balancing it you'd be redesigning it for a new environment.

 

[Sander]

Less useful isn't the same as unbalanced though. Skills can be advanced without spending skill points a science book can't be used to improve any other skill. You have valuable skills and minor skills, and you can decided which is which and affect the point cost by using the tags.

This doesn't change anything about the usefulness of one skill over the other.
Also, the book argument is silly since one of the most useful skills (small guns) also has books for it.

Not true. If you make fundamental changes to a system then you aren't necessarily balancing it.

Ehmm...yes, so? I was talking about balancing the system, not changing it arbitrarily.

Also, not every in-game action requires or should require a skill check to perform, you know.

If we scrap science can we then still complete the science checks in Fallout? Nope, we'd have to remove those as well, wouldn't you then still be crafting the environment to fit the system. Not balancing the system to fit the environment.

A bad example perhaps. A better example would be merging science with other skills (eg. doctor).