silenced guns

Kahgan

Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I know there is alot of gun nuts around here, I was wondering, what sound does a silenced gun make?
My brother is convinced that they don't make the "djiump"-sound we see in movies, I'm not so sure, since why else would they use that sound in movies?
Anyone knows?
 
It all depends on what kind of silencer you have. I've heard guns with silencers that were still pretty freaking loud.
 
I read somewhere that a silencer, especially old ones, makes a sound equivalent to that of a book being dropped off a table.
 
Only ever heard 1 silenced gun anywhere, it sounded like it was behind a wall.

It was fairly quiet, compared to the other guns bieng shot. (It looked kind of like an M14, almost.). If you've ever heard a rifle (non-.22) shot, it's pretty damned loud. This was still loud, just quiet by comparison. Still louder than a 22, though.
 
The problem with silencing guns is that the relative loudness of a noise in calculated as a logarithm; if you silence a gun noise by half, it'd only decrease it's relative loudness by some 3dB, whereas you'd want it to be silenced by some 90-100 dB.

A 7.62 NATO round is supersonic and would cause a miniature sonic boom even if the muzzle blast from the rifle was muffled 4. Yes, the miniature sonic boom is not as easy to pinpoint as a muzzle blast but does produce a very noticeable noise which can draw attention to a shooter.

Even silencing the muzzle blast to a mere "fut" is next to impossible. Muzzle blast noise can exceed 150 decibels 5 (measured at the shooter's location) and is one of the loudest sounds humans are likely to hear. Silencers, suppressors, or cans as they are sometimes called 6 have to be precision made using very exacting technology to have any hope of quieting such a loud noise.

Considering that the threshold of pain is only 130 dB, we're actually glad Hollywood sound tracks don't accurately reproduce the noise of muzzle blasts. If they did, the only sound action movie fans would hear as they staggered out of the theater would be the ringing in their ears. In Blackhawk Down, the soldier who had an automatic weapon fired near his ears really would have been left temporarily, if not permanently, deafened.

SWAT teams sometimes use silencers, not for stealth, but to insure that they will be able to hear if one of the SWAT team members fires a shot inside the confined space of a room. Discharging an unsilenced firearm in a room can cause temporary deafness. Silencers are also sometimes used in raids on clandestine methamphetamine labs. Discharging a normal firearm produces a muzzle flash which can set off volatile fumes. Silencers act as flash suppressors.

Sound is a form of energy transfer and we could define loudness in terms of the energy per unit of time or power output of the sound, but it wouldn't give the complete picture. Sound waves travel outward like balloons expanding around their source. The sound's power is distributed on the surface of the wave which increases with the square of the distance from its source. In other words, the amount of energy per unit of area in the wave declines rapidly as the wave moves away from the source. About the same wave area contacts a person's ear regardless of how far she or he is away from the source. However, the area contains significantly less energy when the source is far away rather than up close. This explains why the sound is not as loud.

Power per unit of area (called sound intensity) would be a better measure of loudness than just power alone. Sound intensity accounts for the fact that the ear receives less power when the source is far away rather than close. Unfortunately, human perception of loudness is not linear with respect to sound intensity. In other words, doubling the sound intensity does not double the perception of loudness. The perception of loudness is, roughly speaking, logarithmic and is represented somewhat better by the decibel scale as follows:

b = 10 log(I / Io)

where:
b = relative sound intensity in decibels
Io = sound intensity at the threshold of hearing (1 x 10-12 W/m2)
I = sound intensity of the noise (W/m2)


Even the decibel falls short of being a true indicator of perceived loudness. The loudness of a noise also depends on its frequency or pitch. Sound measuring equipment, at least partially, accounts for this fact by using various frequency weighting filters. The dBA scale is the most common of these applications. However, if we assume that a muzzle blast's frequency content is in the general vicinity of optimum hearing and that the blast's frequency content doesn't change with loudness, then the unweighted decibel scale is a reasonable indicator of relative loudness for purposes of discussion.

The logarithmic nature of hearing makes muzzle blasts even harder to silence. Let's see what happens to the relative loudness level if we reduce the sound intensity of a muzzle blast by a factor of two. This means we're removing half of the energy from the sound waves. Using the above equation we get the following:

b = 10 log[I / (2Io)]

= 10 log(I / Io) - 10 log(2)

= b0 - 10 log(2)

= 150 - 3.0

= 147 dB


Cutting sound intensity in half only reduces the relative loudness by merely 3 dB. This would be barely noticeable. A good set of ear plugs typically reduces noise by about 30 dB and so, would reduce a muzzle blast from 150 to 120 dB, still a very loud noise. We estimate that the innocuous "fut" sound made by a movie silencer is roughly 50 dB 7, a whopping noise reduction of 100 dB from the dB level of a muzzle blast! In other words, a silencer has to reduce sound intensity of a muzzle blast by a factor of 1010 to give such a low relative loudness. This can be done with a very well designed and precision made silencer using subsonic ammunition. However, even commercially available silencers are more likely to give a reduction of 30 to 40 dB similar to ear plugs, than the incredible 100 dB reduction frequently portrayed in movies, especially when used on high-powered rifles.

More here: http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/mpmain.html#Sound
 
These video clips should give you an idea of what suppressed weapons sound like.

http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5.mov

http://www.hkpro.com/video/MP5SD.mov

Notice the difference between the suppressed MP5 in the first clip and the MP5SD in the second.


http://www.subgunvideos.com/videos/Rob Silvers Videos/Misc. Rob Silvers Videos/can.wmv
In the last video clip you see different types of suppressors being tested, notice the .22 pistol at the end barely makes a sound.

From http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm
Schalldämpfer. This German word is the only differentiation given to the 'silent' cousin of the world's most popular submachine gun. Literally translated as "Sound Dampened," the MP5SD has a large number of fans all over the world, as well as detractors. "Silencers" as they are commonly called, both in legal definitions for their regulation by the National Firearms Act of 1934, and in popular vernacular do not actually do what their name suggests. Sound suppressed or even dampened is a much better way to describe what actually occurs when a firearm is discharged with one on the muzzle. But they are, with the exception of .22 caliber suppressed guns, far from silent.

How would one describe what an SD sounds like being fired? Many gun rags that are available over the counter describe them as being so silent that only the bolt opening and closing is audible. That is pure pablum. Sound suppressed firearms are relatively loud, but suppressed .22 pistols and rifles are very quiet. Most all can be fired without hearing protection, but the key to what the suppressor does, in layman's terms, is to make a gunshot sound like something other than a gunshot. This is an accurate description: They do not sound like gunshots. More like a pneumatic staple gun. As sound suppression systems go, the SD is one of the more quiet available. The SD suppressor is to my knowledge, the only sound suppressor actually manufactured by HK. HK markets many others, primarily by Knight's Armament Co. and Brügger &Thomet of Switzerland (for the new UMP.)
 
the loudness of a silenced firearm has 3 main governing factors: caliber, type of amunition, and type of silencer - wet or dry.

using a wet silencer, and subsonic ammo... the loudest noise the gun is going to make is from the action.

using a dry silencer and standard velocity ammo in a 9mm M-4 conversion, i was still able to hear it while wearing my earplugs.

using standard velocity ammo and a dry silencer on a Ruger Mk II... except for the holes appearing in the target, i couldnt tell it was even shooting.

well, thats my experience... but i thought id throw this in, the MP5SD's silencer will actually slow the bullet to subsonic speed for you.. no special ammo needed
 
Thanks for the info people, can I take it that the sound we usualy hear on action movies is wrong then?
 
DirtyDreamDesigner said:
I presume you meant to say "No special ammo needed", right?

correct... dang typos, ill go ahead and fix it

Kahgan said:
Thanks for the info people, can I take it that the sound we usualy hear on action movies is wrong then?

its not all together wrong, its just not given alot of thought by movie people for example, most 007 movies where a silencer is used are pretty dead on. however, in gamble shooting the silenced .50 cal sniper rifle to take out that chopper in the recent SWAT movie was a crock of shit. there is to my knowledge no factory that makes subsonic .50 BMG... so unless it was a special subsonic reload, the bullet would have still broken the sound barrier thus creating a sonic boom that would be quite audible.
 
Yeah, but when theys were making one of the first James Bonds (sorry, can't remember which one) they wanted Bond to be able to quickly attach a suppressor to his PPK, since attaching one takes longer then they wanted they just fitted a long pipe on the suppressor and then Sean Connery would just stick the thing in the PPK.
BTW the weapons expert on that movie was a WWII British SF.

And, you're right, silencing a .50 is bullshit, but, still I found this:
barrett82a150calsurpressed25sv.jpg
 
DirtyDreamDesigner said:
And, you're right, silencing a .50 is bullshit, but, still I found this:
barrett82a150calsurpressed25sv.jpg

i wasn't saying its impossable to put a silencer on a .50, i was just saying that it would still have quite a report in the local area.
 
Kahgan said:
I know there is alot of gun nuts around here, I was wondering, what sound does a silenced gun make?
My brother is convinced that they don't make the "djiump"-sound we see in movies, I'm not so sure, since why else would they use that sound in movies?
Anyone knows?

Well it depends, I've shot with different firearms and like Warmonger said, the caliber is one of the most important factors. I have shot a Skorpion Vz (can't remember the exact name) submachine gun (yes, the same gun you use in MGS 3: Snake Eater) in .32 ACP with a suppressor. In semiautomatic mode, you could hear the gun inside the house at aprox 30 or 40 meters. In full auto you could hear it on the street, aprox 60 to 70 meters if you shoot 4 round bursts like we were doing. The ammo was plain old .32 ACP, no subsonic munition or reloading. I have shot a .22 rifle with a suppressor and even using regular .22 either short or long, the sound was more or less equivalent with a pellet rifle. My take on this is that, yes, the sound that you hear on the movies is not completely accurate. You see guys shooting 9mms and .45s and the sound they make in the movie is that of a silenced .22 more or less.
 
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