Towards a new cold war ?

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MrBumble

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Putin raises spectre of Cold War with threat of arms race

By Nick Allen in Moscow and Alec Russell in Washington
Last Updated: 6:25pm BST 11/05/2006

Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, raised the spectre of the Cold War yesterday, likening the United States to a voracious wolf and declaring that the arms race was not yet over.

With relations between Moscow and Washington at their most strained in many years, Mr Putin used his annual state of the nation speech to revive Russia's military rivalry with the United States.

"It is premature to speak of the end of the arms race," he said in his televised address to the Russian people. "Moreover, it is going faster today. It is rising to a new technological level."

Seeking to portray the United States as Russia's main adversary, Mr Putin pointed out that Moscow's military budget was 25 times lower than Washington's. He said that would have to change if foreign attempts to interfere in Russian policy were to be warded off.

"We must always be ready to counter any attempts to pressure Russia," he said.


"The stronger our military is, the less temptation there will be to exert such pressure on us."

Spending is to increase on both conventional forces and the so-called nuclear triad of land, sea and air-based strategic weapons, he said.

Two new nuclear-powered submarines armed with Topol-M intercontinental ballistic missiles would soon go into service, the first to be built since 1990, Mr Putin noted as one example.

Meanwhile the mostly conscript-based army must fill two thirds of its ranks with professionals by 2008. Russia's military will reportedly receive £12.3 billion this year, £2 billion more than in 2005.

Mr Putin's annual address is always meticulously dissected by Kremlinologists seeking clues for Russia's direction over the coming 12 months. This year's speech comes just six days after Dick Cheney, the US vice-president, accused the Kremlin of backsliding on democracy and blackmailing its neighbours in one of the most scathing attacks on Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The Russian press compared Mr Cheney's criticisms to Winston Churchill's "Iron Curtain" speech in 1946 and said it heralded the dawn of a new Cold War.

Mr Putin's trenchant remarks went down badly in Washington, where officials also expressed their concern with Moscow's stance over Iran's nuclear program.

Russia, backed by China, is blocking any chance of agreement on a resolution on Iran, arguing that a text proposed by western powers could be interpreted as the first step towards military action.

American officials were bridling over the uncompromising attitude of Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, at Monday night's critical and unsuccessful talks in New York between Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, and the foreign ministers of Germany, France, Britain, Russia and China.

In a sign of the rising political pressure over Russia, Senator John McCain, the Republican front-runner to succeed George W Bush in the White House, launched a broadside against the Kremlin.

"There has been a steady retrogression and a sort of an effort to restore the old Soviet Empire," he told CBS television.

The Russian leader accused the Bush administration of sacrificing the democratic ideals it claimed to cherish when they conflicted with national self-interest.

"Where is all this pathos about protecting human rights and democracy when it comes to the need to pursue their own interests? Here, it seems, everything is allowed and there are no restrictions whatsoever.

"We are aware of what is going on in the world. Comrade Wolf knows whom to eat, he eats without listening and he's clearly not going to listen to anyone."

But he stressed that Russia's foreign policy was based on "pragmatism, predictability and observance of international law".
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Source : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...tin11.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/11/ixnews.html
 
woudnt sweat too much over threats like this from russia. Russia always react the same when one of the baltic counties do they dont like or disagree, they make treats of economic sanctions, try to put political pressure and starts a propaganda campain within theyre country but ussualy its just that a big ballon of hot air.
in example of a more recent event the whole situation in estonia when they wanted to relocate a statue to the ww2 veterans, lots of treats no action, just that the 78% in recent poles claimed estonia to be the biggest treat to russia, so gues it will change to usa now ?
 
Well, I am still waiting for reasonable arguments that explain the "wests" actions like the east expansion of the NATO (although it was promised in the 90s that it wouldn't happen) and the Missle Defence Shield to Russia.

I am from Germany and therefore I should support the EUs postion more, but since I can read Russian newspaper (well and there are a lot of critical positions aviable, "Komersant" for example) I also understand the Russian arguments.

The big problem that I see is that Russia sees itself also as a global actor (from my opinion it is) but the "West" doesn't wan't to acknowledge this. I have expirienced a lot of time that as soon as there are no logic arguments in a discussion with Russia to put pressure on the "West" starts ideology and goes with the "Lacking Democracy Joker".

Really, most Russians know that they aren't living in a true democracy. They acknowledge that this will take some time. Heck, 9 years ago the state was nearly bankrupt and a full scale civil war was near.

"First we need bread in our mouth, democracy comes after this!" is probably most Russians believe in... I know I would if I had lived through that Chaos in the 90s.

Actually I believe it would be the best for us if Russia was a weak state which is dependend from the west, so we coul influence their policy and take their reccources.

Unluckily for us the situation has changed. Luckily for Russia the situation has changed.

The tensions WILL GROW if the leaders don't start look and talk at the same level.

Excluding Russia and isolating it will prove as a big mistake in the future.

------------

Besides... cold war? ney - Russia and the USA have signed a contract that ensures an enormous ammount of the gas and petrol from Russia to the US in the future.

You don't burn your farmes silo.

------------

I know this all sounds pro russian but I actually wanted to point out that there are allways two sides of a medal. If you want to have a dialog one must acknowledge to listen to the other side. Certainly Russia has to do so, too. But I sense that their is a lot of arrogance from our side, too.

Edit: Egis, the case of Estonia shown that they have failed to create a concept how to deal with the Russian minority in their own land. Your land actually did a lot thinks better in this case.
 
estonia when they wanted to relocate a statue to the ww2 veterans, lots of treats no action
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What? So supermarkets boikoting (I have no fucking idea how to spell this) estonian products, the rich son of St.Peterburg's governess making his building company stop building stuff in estonia, the canceling of estonia-Petersburg train, the "repairs" of the railroad which lessens the amount of oil products transited through estonia is "no action"? Wow.
My sources(in russian): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

... Yeah, I take these things too seriously.

By the way, nice year old news.
 
I can't take a man whose looks reminds me of Conan O'Brien.

As Egis says, Russia always comes with this type of threats.

It's getting rather pester.
 
Fahrplan said:
The big problem that I see is that Russia sees itself also as a global actor (from my opinion it is) but the "West" doesn't wan't to acknowledge this. I have expirienced a lot of time that as soon as there are no logic arguments in a discussion with Russia to put pressure on the "West" starts ideology and goes with the "Lacking Democracy Joker".
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There's an insightful article on this topic on the International Herald Tribune, a must-read for anyone that has a quick opinion on this topic, which clarifies that a lot of the current problems have to do with mis-communication and, more importantly, wrong expectations being bred.

When the SU fell in the early 90's, the West were expecting a subservient Russia and post-Soviet states to emerge, that could be dominated by their near neighbours and would uphold liberal and democratic tendencies that would, due to their weaker state, make them subservient to the EU by default. The IMF and World Bank even put pressure on Russia to push its shock therapy transition into a "modern democracy".

Of course it fails, once again showing the lack of realism in the IMF and World Bank and once again showing the lack of the US/EU philosophy of "Universalism" (our way of living is the best way and should be the only way everywhere) to adapt to local situations, which has again been blatantly put up for display in Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, it reveals once again, blatently, that Universalism is a misguided utalitarian philosophy, and not a moral one.

One thing people don't understand is that democracy is not equal to the Enlightened philosophy of Liberalism. If Russia was a perfectly democratic state, they would extradite or execute all homosexuals and turn non-Russian people into second-rate citizens. Why? Because that's what democracy ("the people") demands, and that's why it's a good thing that Yeltsin's constitutionary commission (I personally know someone that was on that commission, he has a lot of interesting stories) understood the need of making a constitutional democracy rather than a more open democracy. This sensible attitude never pervaded into economic reform, sadly, which explains a lot of the 90's.

Anyway, don't expect another Cold War. I'm more worried about who is going to be the next president, Medvedev or Ivanov, and when or whether the St Petersburg Lobby Group is going to gain more ground on the Moscow Lobby Group again. Those are things that matter, not the dick-swinging.
 
Brother None said:
Fahrplan said:
The big problem that I see is that Russia sees itself also as a global actor (from my opinion it is) but the "West" doesn't wan't to acknowledge this. I have expirienced a lot of time that as soon as there are no logic arguments in a discussion with Russia to put pressure on the "West" starts ideology and goes with the "Lacking Democracy Joker".
Click to expand...

There's an insightful article on this topic on the International Herald Tribune, a must-read for anyone that has a quick opinion on this topic, which clarifies that a lot of the current problems have to do with mis-communication and, more importantly, wrong expectations being bred.

When the SU fell in the early 90's, the West were expecting a subservient Russia and post-Soviet states to emerge, that could be dominated by their near neighbours and would uphold liberal and democratic tendencies that would, due to their weaker state, make them subservient to the EU by default. The IMF and World Bank even put pressure on Russia to push its shock therapy transition into a "modern democracy".

Of course it fails, once again showing the lack of realism in the IMF and World Bank and once again showing the lack of the US/EU philosophy of "Universalism" (our way of living is the best way and should be the only way everywhere) to adapt to local situations, which has again been blatantly put up for display in Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, it reveals once again, blatently, that Universalism is a misguided utalitarian philosophy, and not a moral one.

One thing people don't understand is that democracy is not equal to the Enlightened philosophy of Liberalism. If Russia was a perfectly democratic state, they would extradite or execute all homosexuals and turn non-Russian people into second-rate citizens. Why? Because that's what democracy ("the people") demands, and that's why it's a good thing that Yeltsin's constitutionary commission (I personally know someone that was on that commission, he has a lot of interesting stories) understood the need of making a constitutional democracy rather than a more open democracy. This sensible attitude never pervaded into economic reform, sadly, which explains a lot of the 90's.

Anyway, don't expect another Cold War. I'm more worried about who is going to be the next president, Medvedev or Ivanov, and when or whether the St Petersburg Lobby Group is going to gain more ground on the Moscow Lobby Group again. Those are things that matter, not the dick-swinging.
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Great post :!:

I believe it is clear that Ivanov is going to make the race... he's more the military hardliner guy while Medvedev is more the one who will force social projects.
 
I also fear Ivanov will make the race, which would be bad. Considering the likelyhood of the next president being a Putin puppet for 2 years before taking Putin out, politically, it is pretty important to see who is next, and I like Medvedev a lot more than Ivanov.
 
Great read Brother None

I'm guessing Putin was keen on reminding everybody Russia still has teeth ...

Something people seem to miss is that the missle shield mostly protects europe since any ICMB Russia would launch towards the US would take the best and shortest route which is over the pole ...


And now just some thoughts:
Also in a discussion with a friend and some research it is clear that the US at this point has the possiblity of taking on both Russia and China with almos certain success and most of this would be credited in our opinion offcourse to the B2 not ICMBs ... which can hit a large number oof high end strategic targets way ahead of Russia or China lauching a counter - i'm not saying they wont be able to retaliate but the alaska and canada shield together with the fast hit would minimize US losses.
 
And now just some thoughts:
Also in a discussion with a friend and some research it is clear that the US at this point has the possiblity of taking on both Russia and China with almos certain success and most of this would be credited in our opinion offcourse to the B2 not ICMBs ... which can hit a large number oof high end strategic targets way ahead of Russia or China lauching a counter - i'm not saying they wont be able to retaliate but the alaska and canada shield together with the fast hit would minimize US losses.
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Thats an interesting though. I watched this documentary about oil yesterday, and there they mentioned that a new cold war wasn't to imminent. But they said that there are issues that might lead up to it. They mentioned that a Russian/Chinese anti-American pact might be in the making, to make sure that they get influence over the caspian sea. A place where the US already have started to build permanent military bases.
 
just another thought:
i dont think China is keen on any kind of hostilities right now .. since they are the largest producer in the world with the US and Europe being its biggest consumers - both worlds need each other while Russia is loosing importance and hence is showing its ugly face by reminding everyone theyre still dangerous -

its not just the missle aiming thing ... europe and former Soviet Union states are really feeling the squeeze - europe regarding its energy a lot of it coming from russia and the former Soviet Union states regarding theyre allegience so to speak ... Russia losing its status as primary trade partner to them ...

maybe to some respect Russia is still in some form the Soviet Union which opened up a bit but cant go further since the old system hast really collapsed totally and is hanging on even hoping for a comeback... but this is just an outside view.
 
Sorry, but no. China and Russia are not on very good terms right now.

Chinese Party mouth piece recently had a field day "delicately" denouncing Russia after Russia started to kick out some Chinese who are living in Russia. Of course, this is bad because they were just praising Russia as a good friend and neighbor due to the Russian year in China thing Of course, this could have been resolved after Chinese New Year, since I stopped watching Chinese news after that.

Of course, the oil thing is the deciding factor.
 
radnan said:
just another thought:
i dont think China is keen on any kind of hostilities right now .. since they are the largest producer in the world with the US and Europe being its biggest consumers - both worlds need each other while Russia is loosing importance and hence is showing its ugly face by reminding everyone theyre still dangerous -

its not just the missle aiming thing ... europe and former Soviet Union states are really feeling the squeeze - europe regarding its energy a lot of it coming from russia and the former Soviet Union states regarding theyre allegience so to speak ... Russia losing its status as primary trade partner to them ...

maybe to some respect Russia is still in some form the Soviet Union which opened up a bit but cant go further since the old system hast really collapsed totally and is hanging on even hoping for a comeback... but this is just an outside view.
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It is the other way around, Russia is gaining importance (in your case in Europe and China) and therefore starts showing their own interest.

While everybody talks about China being the next big thing, I believe that if Russia gets their things rightit will become a power to be aware of.

Brother None said:
I also fear Ivanov will make the race, which would be bad.
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Actually I am more concerned about Kasparow. Man this Mofo is anoying! A populist at its best(worst)!
 
Nothing wrong with Kasparov. He doesn't have any popular support and hence isn't a thread, but it's always good to have an outside conscience roaming about, even if he is slightly mentally unhinged. The real danger is with the powerbrokers.

Starseeker: I figured that China would stil be playing the careful neutrality game, even with Russia's xenophobic antagonism, since they're still buying oil, gas and weapons from Russia?
 
Looks like the missile shield thing has been defused.

I am not sure who won this coup- Putin for making a suggestion or the US for creating the opening. I am not sure if the shield in Azarbaijan will work, but it would reassure the Russians, and that's a good thing.
 
Azerbaijan is actually a much more logical location, if you want to defend against Iran. If you want to defend against Russia, it's not, but the US is not doing that, now is it?

Putin trapped Bush in a convenient little mousehole. Hella realpolitik. Not badly done.
 
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