Turkey and Europe to make a union?

[welsh]

I thought the Europeans were still having problems with a Constitution.

Or is that Iraq?

Better late than never

Oct 4th 2005
From The Economist Global Agenda

The European Union and Turkey have finally agreed on a negotiating framework that will allow formal talks on Turkish membership of the EU to begin. Within Turkey and outside it, there are questions about the predominantly Muslim country’s readiness for Europe

EU- No Muslims Allowed?

WHEN the countries of the European Union agreed last December to grant Turkey its fondest dream and begin formal talks on admitting the big, predominantly Muslim nation as a member, it was no doubt envisaged, or at least hoped, that the date pencilled in the diary for the start of the process would be a time of ceremony and celebrations, not bickering and brinkmanship. But the EU wouldn't be the EU without those last-minute panics, replete with desperate horse-trading and just-good-enough fudges, and in this respect Monday October 3rd did not disappoint. For much of the day, it looked like the love affair was in real danger of ending in acrimony. But thanks to some frenzied diplomatic activity, it ended instead in a firm—though hardly warm—embrace.

A love- you bicker and you make up.

The main sticking point had been the insistence by Austria's government, ostensibly isolated but perhaps tacitly backed by others in the EU, that Turkey be given an explicit alternative to joining the EU: a “privileged partnership” that falls short of full membership. As a result, by the middle of Monday afternoon, European diplomats still had not agreed a common negotiating framework for the accession talks, which had been scheduled to begin officially at 5pm with a ceremony in Luxembourg attended by EU bigwigs and Turkey's foreign minister, Abdullah Gul. It was finally conceded that, with the deadlock still not broken, there was no way the event could be held on time. “We are on the edge of a precipice,” said Jack Straw, Britain's foreign minister and chairman of the emergency talks.

So would Turkey be like a second-classed european country? Or is that left for the members of East Europe?

A couple of hours later, the EU stepped back from the edge. A common negotiating framework was finally agreed, after Austria had been persuaded to step back in line. There followed further confusion, with the spokesman for the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, having to dismiss reports that his country had accepted the draft. Finally, several hours after the ceremony had been due to take place, the Turks confirmed that they could indeed live with the document and that Mr Gul would be heading off to Luxembourg.

But if you let in Turkey does that mean you have to let in.....

It appears that Austria's co-operation was bought by clearing the way for Croatia to open EU membership negotiations of its own. Croatia is an Austrian ally, and the government in Vienna had linked the Turkish issue with the Croats' stalled bid to start accession talks. The EU put its talks with Croatia on hold in March because, it said, the country's government was not co-operating fully with the United Nations war-crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. But in a statement on Monday whose timing was almost certainly not coincidental, Carla del Ponte, the UN war-crimes prosecutor for the Balkans, announced that the Croats were, after all, doing everything they could to locate and arrest a key suspect, General Ante Gotovina.

Ratty, what are you doing about this?

Though Austria has been persuaded to drop its objection to Turkish membership of the EU, it takes over the Union's presidency in January (for six months) and may use its position to try to revive its idea of a partnership, instead of full membership. It is a view that plenty of others find appealing. Nicolas Sarkozy, a popular Gaullist who is well placed to win the French presidency in 2007, opposes Turkish membership. So does Angela Merkel, who is favourite to take Germany’s chancellorship following its recent elections, which ended in a hung parliament. Overall, just 35% of EU citizens support Turkish membership, according to a recent poll by Eurobarometer.

Ja.. Vee don't like Zees Turkish Mens vit our Voomen.

Some supporters of Turkish membership say it will help to strengthen ties between the Christian and Muslim worlds. Others argue that failure to agree terms would have deepened the sense of crisis in Europe after the rejection of the EU's draft constitution by French and Dutch voters in May and June, and the continuing deadlock over the Union's budget. But many Europeans are queasy about the idea of taking in a non-Christian member with a large population (currently 72m), and of hordes of Turkish job-seekers overwhelming the EU's current members. It was precisely because Europe's national leaders had failed to take account of its citizens' concerns that the constitution was voted down, argue the sceptics; pushing ahead with entry talks for Turkey when the majority is clearly opposed shows how little those leaders have learnt from the summer debacle.

Yes, more Turkish job-seekers means more supply for labor- leads to less demand- and so Europeans can make Walmart wages too.

The suspicion is mutual
Turkey has doubts about the EU too. Indeed, it raised last-minute objections of its own on Monday, insisting on clarification of a clause in the draft negotiating framework that says Ankara may not block the accession of EU states to international organisations and treaties. Turkish nationalists and generals expressed concern that this might prevent Turkey, a member of NATO, blocking Cyprus, which remains divided into ethic Greek and ethnic Turkish republics, from joining the military alliance. Turkish fears were only eased after America's secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, telephoned Mr Erdogan to assure him that the proposed negotiating framework had no relevance to NATO.

But its funny how you can't distinguish an ugly greek chick from an ugly Turkish chick.

Indeed, now that the European club of nations has finally begun formal talks with Turkey, the focus may shift to the resistance among the Turks themselves to the legal, economic and cultural changes that the EU is demanding. To get this far, Turkey has taken such dramatic steps as abolishing the death penalty, accepting Kurdish as a language in schools, scrapping state security courts, revising the penal code and tightening civilian control over the army. Yet it still has much to do on rights and democracy to meet EU rules.

This seemingly never-ending list of required reforms irks Turkish nationalists, whose influence has been growing since June 2004, when the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) ended a five-year truce. A recent poll shows the jingoistic Nationalist Action Party, which failed to enter parliament in the 2002 elections, would gain seats today. And Mr Erdogan's foes in the army fear that rapprochement with Europe will reduce their power—and see in Turkey’s internal conflicts a chance to restore that influence. But solving the Kurdish problem requires more democracy, not repression, the prime minister insists. People close to Mr Erdogan say he has pinned his political fortunes on further reforms, with or without the EU. “He can’t compete on nationalism with the ultra-nationalists, so it’s in his interest to keep on reforming,” says a western diplomat.

Ah and wouldn't it be funny if the Europeans got their own middle east country, and then it went muslim fundamentalist.

Another challenge, in his dealings both with sceptical Europeans and his own voters, is to honour his claim to be giving Turkey its first clean government. Charges of irregularity in the sale of shares in the state refinery, Tupras—and also in a tender for the operation of Istanbul’s Galata port—have weakened that claim. Unless he deals with sleaze, Mr Erdogan may lose the trust of his own citizens and his European partners. That would be a pity, when the prime minister has risked so much for Turkey’s European future.

Ok, your thoughts?

 

[greatatlantic]

But its funny how you can't distinguish an ugly greek chick from an ugly Turkish chick.

What are you talking about? The ugly chicks are the Turkish chicks?

I'm Greek by blood, does it show?

 

[Jebus]

Yesterday, or the day before, Karel Van Miert - a Belgian former European Comissioner - appeared on a Belgian in-depth news show to talk about this whole Turkey-into-the-EU thing. He made a pretty big fool out of himself, yelling things like 'Turkey is Arabian' and 'Turkey has never been a part of European history'. He had me laughing, that's for sure.

Today, however, I noticed that several of Belgium's newspapers - even the more respectable ones - are actually quoting him as an expert on the subject.

I'm rather concerned. It seems like people are willing to accept all kinds of reasons - even the ridiculous ones or the all-out wrong ones - to keep Turkey out of the EU.

 

[Ashmo]

Angela Merkel is head of the CHRISTIAN union. They are the conservatives. What do you expect them to do? Sing and dance and be happy?

Religious reasons are fairly limited, except for some outback Bavarian hillbillies who think any nation reigned by Muslims is a tool of Satan.

The problem with Turkey is that the EU has very strict humanitarian laws and Turkey only just managed to establish somewhat stable conditions compatible with them.

Even the US couldn't become a part of the EU for humanitarian reasons.

The question is whether the human rights established in Turkey are stable enough and whether the country itself is ready and democratic enough.

The Constitution is an entirely different story and was mostly neglected because it ISN'T a mere constitution -- IIRC it consisted of three parts and only two of them made up the actual constitution, the third part defined very specific rules outside the scope of the constitution (although most of them were already covered by the de facto "constitution" we already have).

Just don't go there.

The last thing this refuge from the Real World needs is another thread full of unqualified blurts on what Joe Random and his dog think Europe should be like.

Edited to decrease offensiveness

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

It appears that Austria's co-operation was bought by clearing the way for Croatia to open EU membership negotiations of its own. Croatia is an Austrian ally, and the government in Vienna had linked the Turkish issue with the Croats' stalled bid to start accession talks. The EU put its talks with Croatia on hold in March because, it said, the country's government was not co-operating fully with the United Nations war-crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. But in a statement on Monday whose timing was almost certainly not coincidental, Carla del Ponte, the UN war-crimes prosecutor for the Balkans, announced that the Croats were, after all, doing everything they could to locate and arrest a key suspect, General Ante Gotovina.

Ratty, what are you doing about this?

Probably the same thing the rest of Croatia is doing; laughing our asses off.

 

[Jebus]

People can laugh in the Balkans?

 

[Hellion]

As Chiraq (sp?) put it, "Turkey must undergo a cultural REVOLUTION in order to be able to join the EU within the next 20 (!!!!!) years". And they must also announce their recognition of Cyprus within the same time period. Personally, judging on Turkey's stance so far, I doubt they can pull it off, even within such a wide time frame.

But its funny how you can't distinguish an ugly greek chick from an ugly Turkish chick.

Yes you can. The Turkish chick has darker skin and speaks an incomprehensible arab-like language.

Of course, half the population of Turkey probably has one or more European ancestors (blue-eyed and blonde Arabs with fair skin is not something you see every day, yet Turkey seems full of them), so it is quite possible that an ugly Greek/Spanish/French/English chick and an ugly Turkish chick might have more in common than it may seem...

 

[Jebus]

The Turkish chick has darker skin and speaks an incomprehensible arab-like language.

Of course, half the population of Turkey probably has one or more European ancestors (blue-eyed and blonde Arabs with fair skin is not something you see every day, yet Turkey seems full of them), so it is quite possible that an ugly Greek/Spanish/French/English chick and an ugly Turkish chick might have more in common than it may seem...

Turks have nothing to do with Arabs. Arabs came from the Arabian peninsula, the Turks came from the same place most of the Eastern European people came from: the steppes.

Funny how many people make that mistake.

 

[Brother None]

Well, Jebus, you have to remember that when one speaks of "European" in a EU context one usually refers to Western Europe. The guys that got dragged along by the renaissance, industrialisation, all that hullabaloo.

Defining this gets to be more difficult. Why does Greece have more rights to join the EU than Turkey? None whatsoever, from a cultural standpoint, Greece just happens to be at the center of our own cradle of European civilization obsession. Our bad. Still, if you let Greece in, it becomes hard to refuse Turkey.

That said, I'm against Turkey joining in the same vein as I was against the EU-10 joining. I don't like it, I think rapid expansion is going to turn the EU into a ticking timebomb.

But promises made are promises kept. It is simply a matter of decency in international politics to keep your promises, especially on matters such as this. Plus Turkey does have a lot to offer the EU, from a multicultural (hah!) and economic standpoint (since now, after the dismissing of the constitution, we're pretty much thrown back to our economic roots).

Interesting problem is that Turkey, as opposed to the big EU-countries, is young and growing rapidly. By the time it is ready to join the EU (10 year minimum, 20-25 years is more probable), it'd be the biggest and thus democratically the most powerful EU nation. Ooops?

 

[John Uskglass]

I'm rather concerned. It seems like people are willing to accept all kinds of reasons - even the ridiculous ones or the all-out wrong ones - to keep Turkey out of the EU.

We rarley totally agree Jebus, but this may be changing. You are totally right.

And the EU was a ticking timebomb from the beggining Kharn. The simple fact is that Europeans like killing eachother in bloody wars, and anything that represses that will just ultimatley make the next bloodbath worse.

 

[Brother None]

And the EU was a ticking timebomb from the beggining Kharn. The simple fact is that Europeans like killing eachother in bloody wars, and anything that represses that will just ultimatley make the next bloodbath worse.

I yawn in the face of your demagogic speeches. That kind of inevitability-determinist claptrap is barely constructive. I bet you're expecting China to fragment and fued too, huh? Let's not forget the States, too...

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

People can laugh in the Balkans?

Hehehe, laugh it up, tuition boy, your taxes will be paying for my agricultural reforms and urban development for the next 2 years.

 

[Loxley]

People can laugh in the Balkans?

Yes but as you can see from what DDD says their asses falls of. Anyone can guess why the romanians don't laugh?

 

[Fas Ist]

Sure, not Croatia, but Turkey in the EU.I suggest the great inviting of Kazakhstan, Israel and Azerbaijan.

Why does Greece have more rights to join the EU than Turkey?

Greece was pushed into the EU by the Capitalists, because it could become a Socialist country.

Turks have nothing to do with Arabs. Arabs came from the Arabian peninsula, the Turks came from the same place most of the <strike>Eastern</strike> European people came from: the steppes.

No.The Indo-Europeans were living in Iran, Afganistan and parts from Pakistan.The distance between them and the Turks was like from Lisboa to The Ukrane.

 

[Silencer]

there are questions about the predominantly Muslim country’s readiness for Europe

Wait... France isn't ready for Europe?

 

[Jebus]

Turks have nothing to do with Arabs. Arabs came from the Arabian peninsula, the Turks came from the same place most of the <strike>Eastern</strike> European people came from: the steppes.

No.The Indo-Europeans were living in Iran, Afganistan and parts from Pakistan.The distance between them and the Turks was like from Lisboa to The Ukrane.

Why would you strike out 'Eastern' and then act like it was never there? I mean, do you really think me so stupid I wouldn't notice it? What the hell is going on in that little Bulgaric head of yours?

Also, let us go deeper into this.

QUESTION A: Did the Turks come from the steppes?

ANSWER: Yes.

QUESTION B: Did - say - the Slavs come from the steppes?

ANSWER: Yes.



You see Was Ist, the steppes are rather large. I never did claim they lived on the same square kilometer of steppe, or happily shared cabin and wife. They may have been several hundreds of kilometers apart, but that makes no difference: you're all filthy, stinking, fatherless spawn of nomadic filth to me. Especially the Poles.

And I mean this is the nicest possible way.


*EDIT* I'm not racist tho'. Not at all.

*EDIT2* BECAUSE EASTERN EUROPEANS CANNOT BE CONSIDERED HUMAN HAR HAR HAR

 

[alec]

I wholeheartedly agree with Kharn. Europe is expanding way too fast. Can't be a good thing, that.

On the other hand: what do I care? I like stories with a bad ending way better than feel-good-stories. Feel-good-stories make alec feel like something the cat dragged in. And alec not like feeling like something the cat dragged in.

 

[John Uskglass]

No.The Indo-Europeans were living in Iran, Afganistan and parts from Pakistan.The distance between them and the Turks was like from Lisboa to The Ukrane.

Fas ist makes a fool out of himself again. Damn boy, you do this better then me in my hay day.


Indo-European homeland is generally considered to be either just north of some parts of the Caucases (Kurgan hypotheses) which has expansion into Turkey the first Indo-European expansion (as the Hittites where either Indo-European or very close to it) around 4,000 BC. Another, has the Indo-Europeans expand peacfully from Asia Minor with agriculture, which IIRC a guy named Colin Renfrew, and there is the much newer Black Sea deluge theroy that has Indo-European develop as a trade language among the Baltic peoples and then get the fuck out when the Black Sea meets with the Medditeranian.

So any way you are basically a huge douche.

 

[Fas Ist]

I wholeheartedly agree with Kharn. Europe is expanding way too fast. Can't be a good thing, that.

True.16 years ago, almost all of these 10 countries were socialistic, against capitalism and EU.But what's the point of deterring the membership of Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania, after those 10 were accepted?
And Turkey - it is not an European country.Also - it is an extremely poor one(from an European point of view).People there are not educated, easy-manipulative religious fanatics and nationalists.My god, when I was to Istanbul in March this year, I saw at least 10 000 Turkish flags just for a few days .But Istanbul is not Turkey.If you want to feel the real "spirit" of Turkey go to Anatolia

I mean, do you really think me so stupid I wouldn't notice it?

LOL

What the hell is going on in that little Bulgaric head of yours?

I don't know, but better check what is going on in the 'enormous' Belgaric head of yours.

QUESTION B: Did - say - the Slavs come from the steppes?
ANSWER: Yes.

All the Europeans came from a simular place!That's why we are called Indo-Europeans :!: If we had been simular to Turks, we would have been called Nomads.

you're all filthy, stinking, fatherless spawn of nomadic filth to me. Especially the Poles.

Yeah, sure, but my country is the oldest European one, which still exists today!And stop insulting the Poles, mister "The Biggest Iceberg Is Larger Than My Homeland".You even don't have an own Belg language.

CCR, what does Arianna mean then?Also - you speak about later events.

 

[John Uskglass]

Yeah, sure, but my country is the oldest European one, which still exists today!And stop insulting the Poles, mister "The Biggest Iceberg Is Larger Than My Homeland".You even don't have an own Belg language.

Nationalism strikes again! And people wonder why we hate the French?!


That's just stupid Fas ist. Even you know that on some level.

All the Europeans came from a simular place!That's why we are called Indo-Europeans Exclamation If we had been simular to Turks, we would have been called Nomads.

I think you mean Altaic, super-douche.

And, hey, Fas ist, you know what kind of name Bulgar is? IT'S ALTAIC ASSRAPER.

And no, that's still bullshit. We are all mixes of hundreds of diffirent races: because I am mostly Norman and Anglo-Saxon I'm probably part French, German, Celtic, Pictish, Dutch, Scandanavian, and because you are Bulgarian you are probably part Turkish, Bulgar, Slav, Romanian, Greek, Romany, and because Jebus is Belgian he is probably 99% Gay and Congolese Pygmy.