White Legs taking .50 BMG rounds to the face...

[agiel7]

I'm fully aware that Obsidian had to ratchet up the difficulty for whatever level 30 or so players who got Honest Hearts, but it seems to me that for devs who kind of prided themselves on actually trying to go for a semblance of realism compared to Fallout 3 that a White Legs tribesman taking a .50 BMG round to his temple while I had 100 guns skill, 8 agility, and met the strength requirement requires suspension of disbelief.

Yes, yes, YES, I know it would make the balance of the game wonky if they buffed it so that a single, un-stealthed body-shot from the Anti-Materiel rifle could drop a Legion Praeatorian, but couldn't they have made it so that the player would be lucky to find so much as a magazine of .50 rounds in a stash or on sale at Gun Runners? That way, you'd pretty much only use it on the odd Deathclaw that strayed too far from the rest of the pack.

 

[Crni Vuk]

What do you mean "compared to Fallout 3" ? You are not serious aren't you ?

 

[Courier]

What do you mean "compared to Fallout 3" ? You are not serious aren't you ?

I think he was trying to say that Fallout 3 was not realistic at all, and the developers of NV tried to add a little more realism and weapon balance.

 

[Crni Vuk]

makes sense yes as Fallout 3 had well no kind of plausible damage system in my eyes (yaay for enemies punching trough power armor with spoons!)

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Yes, yes, YES, I know it would make the balance of the game wonky if they buffed it so that a single, un-stealthed body-shot from the Anti-Materiel rifle could drop a Legion Praeatorian, but couldn't they have made it so that the player would be lucky to find so much as a magazine of .50 rounds in a stash or on sale at Gun Runners? That way, you'd pretty much only use it on the odd Deathclaw that strayed too far from the rest of the pack.

And what would accomplish that exactly? Even if ammo was rare the moment you used it on a "normal" human for whatever reason you would notice the absurdity of it all.

And from a gameplay and "realism" perspective the Brush Gun is even worse since it can deal more or less the same damage (despite being a simple rifle while the other...well...) but with a higher rate of fire.

 

[Walpknut]

At least the White Legs don't have more defense than power armor or have a magical damage bonus.

 

[Wintermind]

.45-70 isn't exactly a simple round. It's the sort of thing that you'd like to use to kill a bear.

As for .50 BMG failing to kill a tribal, well, it's a video game. be happy that you can run around a shoot an big ass rifle like that while standing. And not, y'know, laying down with the rifle supported like you would in real life.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

.45-70 isn't exactly a simple round. It's the sort of thing that you'd like to use to kill a bear.

Calling it a "simple rifle" was indeed wrong but the point is that the AMR should logically be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful. But of course there are gameplay related reasons for that.

 

[Crni Vuk]

well that is the issue you simply HAVE to accept and deal with if you take a world/game like Fallout and turn it in to a graphic heavy first person/third person shooter game. Complaining here about people taking headshots is not different then what you have with Fear or other shooters which have a simple health point based system.

Realism is something which should be left to simulations and tactic shooters. The problem with Fallout 3 was though that it made a lot of ilogical decisions for what ever reason. Like powerarmor beeing less effective then the one or other "combat armor" or such other nonsense.

 

[Wintermind]

Yeah, but it's a thing that's present even in the older games. It's entirely possible to hit someone in the head and have them not die. Or to hit them in the arm and have them collapse in a bloody heap.Or the leg. Or to have a single shot to groin flatout kill somebody.

 

[Crni Vuk]

sure. Maybe that only counts for me though but that never bothered me at all. You know. It was an "RPG". not a real life simulator.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Yeah, but it's a thing that's present even in the older games. It's entirely possible to hit someone in the head and have them not die.

That's because hitpoints aren't just health points, a hit in the old games might just crease their temple or just pass close enough to make them flinch wearing down their stamina and will to win.

Or to hit them in the arm and have them collapse in a bloody heap.Or the leg. Or to have a single shot to groin flatout kill somebody.

Shock can kill, or severing a femoral artery. Or just plain you might of aimed at the arm/groin but actually hit something more vital. But these sort of game mechanics work better in the abstract offered by a Birdseye view.

 

[agiel7]

Yeah, but it's a thing that's present even in the older games. It's entirely possible to hit someone in the head and have them not die.

That's because hitpoints aren't just health points, a hit in the old games might just crease their temple or just pass close enough to make them flinch wearing down their stamina and will to win.

Or to hit them in the arm and have them collapse in a bloody heap.Or the leg. Or to have a single shot to groin flatout kill somebody.

Shock can kill, or severing a femoral artery. Or just plain you might of aimed at the arm/groin but actually hit something more vital. But these sort of game mechanics work better in the abstract offered by a Birdseye view.

He pretty much nailed my sentiments on the head.

I do believe it was on this very forum that it was said that one of the advantages of the isometric view was that since it left a lot to the imagination, it was easier to come up with in-game explanations for certain events. But with a game like Deus Ex where if you jumped on top of a desk fast enough before the conversation started, you'd have a hilarious situation where a person would nonchalantly chat with JC Denton while he was talking down to him from the desk. With a game like this, it is unfortunately much harder to justify these lapses. I'd be fine with a wtfpwned AMR, so long as it was harder, but more rewarding, to do things like find ammo, maintain it, and aim unless crouching

Hopefully, now that Bethesda has dumped the busted Gamebryo engine, those reality-bending things will be fixed.

 

[brfritos]

Hopefully, now that Bethesda has dumped the busted Gamebryo engine, those reality-bending things will be fixed.

I have my reserves with this kind of statement, to be honest.
Let's do the opposite scenario, how on hearth YOU survive an AMR shot in the chest wearing nothing more than a reinforced leather armor?

You said that the problem with FO3 and NV is not being isometric and I agree with you to some extent. The most dumb statement I still read today is "isometric is a thing of the past, it won't work in FO3 and NV".
Really? What about Age of Empires, Civ, Red Alert/C&C, Starcraft, Warcraft, just to mention some very famous frenchises?
The upcoming Diablo III will have 3D graphics, but the view will be isometric.

But in RA or Starcraft the view is isometric and the battles are real time, not turn-base.

There's a ton of unbalance things in FO3/NV and this is not because the gameplay is FPS.
Take VATS, for example, it's very good for close combat, except the thing is terrible implemented, because at long range it serves for nothing.
But the best part is, if you have a high luck and high critical chance, every of those "1%" marks turns into a scored hit.
WTF?!

I still have to thrown my hat to Obsidian, because even if you are level 30, HH are challenging.
Sure, they resort to the old "though guy" exploit regarding tribals, but the animals behave a little more intelligent without having extremelly high health (if there's more than one when you engage them, one make a frontal assault and the other try to flank you).

So the problem is the engine or the producer behind it?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I have my reserves with this kind of statement, to be honest.
Let's do the opposite scenario, how on hearth YOU survive an AMR shot in the chest wearing nothing more than a reinforced leather armor?

Same as the head shot, in isometric or table top gaming any non critical hit that doesn't kill can actually be a miss but one so close it wears the target down.

You said that the problem with FO3 and NV is not being isometric and I agree with you to some extent.

The problem is trying to shoehorn pen and paper mechanics into first person shooter mechanics. Pen and paper games use hitpoints because they are a fairly easy, albeit imperfect, mechanic to keep track of without the aid of a computer. Computers now can model location based damage and ballistic modelling etc there is absolutely no need to incorporate old school mechanics. Unless you are making a simulation of playing a pen and paper game but then you'd be making it turn based and isometric like the original devs did.

It would be interesting to see a modern turnbased game that used traditional rpg stats to differentiate between characters but then switched to physics modelling once a shot had been fired or a punch swung.

So the problem is the engine or the producer behind it?

Or both.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Hopefully, now that Bethesda has dumped the busted Gamebryo engine, those reality-bending things will be fixed.

...Bethesda ...

I would not really bet on it. What you talk about has more to do with gameplay. So if they really wanted to "fix" this part and making the damage more believable. They would have simply done it. But they did not. They created Fallout 3 as some kind of amusement park for the violance loving kid on purpose. And I have no doubts that Fallout 4 if done by them will have exactly the same gameplay. Probably a bit more simplified the one or other way.

 

[brfritos]

You said that the problem with FO3 and NV is not being isometric and I agree with you to some extent.

The problem is trying to shoehorn pen and paper mechanics into first person shooter mechanics. Pen and paper games use hitpoints because they are a fairly easy, albeit imperfect, mechanic to keep track of without the aid of a computer. Computers now can model location based damage and ballistic modelling etc there is absolutely no need to incorporate old school mechanics. Unless you are making a simulation of playing a pen and paper game but then you'd be making it turn based and isometric like the original devs did.

Computers today are powerhouses, but you are talking of simulating the components of a cartdrige, the powder used, the muzzle velocity, the armor an opponent is using, the material wich is made, weather factors AND the graphic models, textures, gameworld terrain and the entities around.
There are softwares today for simulating and predicting ballistics, like Quick Load and Quick Target, but how the game will consult this data for making an accurate prediction? Probably in a database. How large would be this database, without slowing down the game?

You can see this on GECK, it requires a shitload of computer power for loading and managing the database, the software and editor itself are lightweight.

Analizing things separately is one thing, but putting them togheter is a completely different story.
I'm not a programmer, I'm a network administrator, but it seems what you are talking about isn't a trivial thing to be implemented.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Computers today are powerhouses, but you are talking of simulating the components of a cartdrige, the powder used, the muzzle velocity, the armor an opponent is using, the material wich is made, weather factors AND the graphic models, textures, gameworld terrain and the entities around.

No I'm talking about using the mechanics of many modern computer games already on the market, rather than using the mechanics of a system designed to be manageable without the aid of a computer.

 

[brfritos]

No I'm talking about using the mechanics of many modern computer games already on the market, rather than using the mechanics of a system designed to be manageable without the aid of a computer.

But on those games your character is already defined for you, in FO you define your character.

That's why the guns efficiency is attached to your skill, not to the guns or his proprieties itself.

 

[Wintermind]

Don't most games still use a sort of hit box system, and not simulate bullets flying through the air, and tearing holes into a chunks of meat and bone? And then determine the effects of said meat and bone being torn and shredded by the round used? The effects of the meat and bone on the bullet? Never mind that there is no accurate basis for determind what exactly will happen when you shoot something; oh sure you can take a guess, but you still get Kennedy's and the occasional chance where the bullet exists the body in a completely different side of the body.

Never mind that you'd also essentially have people (yourself included) dying after one or two bullets without immediate medical treatment.

Oh and machineguns tend to fire at a rate of six hundred rounds a minute at the lower end. Which means that in three seconds you could have thirty bullets flying through the air. then multiply that by four or five, depending on the number dudes in the area. Then have all that running at the same time as the rest of the world, which is also handling the effects of everyone running around and breathing, bleeding, having their hearts pumping blood, and all the other shit that is happening at the same time?