Zakaria Says Poo-Poo to EU

John Uskglass

Venerable Relic of the Wastes
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
Feb. 20, 2006 issue - Cartoons and riots made the headlines in Europe last week, but a far less fiery event, the publication of an academic study, might shed greater light on the future of the Continent. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, headquartered in Paris, released a report, Going for Growth, that details economic prospects in the industrial world. It is 160 pages long and written in bland, cautious, scholarly prose. But the conclusion is clear—Europe is in deep trouble. These days we all talk about the rise of Asia and the challenge to America, but it might well turn out that the most consequential trend of the next decade will be the economic decline of Europe.

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the EU has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the U.S. and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years. If present trends continue, the chief economist at the OECD argues, in 20 years the average U.S. citizen will be twice as rich as the average Frenchman or German. (Britain is an exception on most of these measures, lying somewhere between Continental Europe and the U.S.)

People have argued that Europeans simply value leisure more and, as a result, are poorer but have a better quality of life. That's fine if you're taking a 10 percent pay cut and choosing to have longer lunches and vacations. But if you're only half as well off as the U.S., that will translate into poorer health care and education, diminished access to all kinds of goods and services, and a lower quality of life. Two Swedish researchers, Frederik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag, note in a monograph published last year that "40 percent of Swedish households would rank as low-income households in the U.S." In many European countries, the percentage would be even greater.

In March 2000, the EU's heads of state agreed to make the EU "the most competitive and dynamic knowledge-driven economy by 2010." Today this looks like a joke. The OECD report goes through the status of reforms country by country, and all the major continental economies get a B-minus. Whenever some politician makes tiny, halting efforts at reform, strikes and protests paralyze the country. In recent months, reformers like Nicolas Sarkozy in France, Jose Manuel Barroso in Brussels and Angela Merkel in Germany have been backtracking on their proposals and instead mouthing pious rhetoric about the need to "manage" globalization. EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson's efforts to liberalize trade have been consistently undercut. As a result of the EU's unwillingness to reduce its massive farm subsidies, the Doha trade-expansion round is dead.

Talk to top-level scientists and educators about the future of scientific research, and they will rarely even mention Europe. There are areas in which it is world-class, but they are fewer than they once were. In the biomedical sciences, for example, Europe is not on the map, and it might well be surpassed by much poorer Asian countries. The CEO of a large pharmaceutical company told me that in 10 years, the three most important countries for his industry would be the United States, China and India.



And I haven't even gotten to the demographics. In 25 years, the number of working-age Europeans will decline by 7 percent, while those over 65 will increase by 50 percent. One solution: let older people work. But Europe's employment rate for people over 60 is low: 7 percent in France and 12 percent in Germany (compared with 27 percent in the U.S.). Modest efforts to allow people to retire later have been met with the usual avalanche of protests. And while economists and the European Commission keep proposing that Europe take in more immigrants to expand its labor force, it won't. The cartoon controversy has powerfully highlighted the difficulties Europe is having with its existing immigrants.

What does all this add up to? Less European influence in the world. Europe's position in institutions like the World Bank and the IMF relates to its share of world GDP. Its dwindling defense spending weakens its ability to be a military partner of the U.S., or to project military power abroad even for peacekeeping purposes. Its cramped, increasingly protectionist outlook will further sap its vitality.

The decline of Europe means a world with a greater diffusion of power and a lessened ability to create international norms and rules of the road. It also means that America's superpower status will linger. Think of the dollar. For years people have argued that it is due for a massive drop as countries around the world diversify their savings. But as people looked at the alternatives, they decided that the chief rivals, the euro and the yen, represented economies that were structurally weak. So they have reluctantly stuck with the dollar. It's a similar dynamic in other arenas. You can't beat something with nothing.

Man is a genius, and ALWAYS right.
 
now now now Johnny boy. it's a fact that our populace is growing grey & we'll have some trouble.

however i'd like to point out a few things:
- the EU is the largest exporter in the world. also 61 of the 140 biggest corporations in the world are european. only about 50 american.
- if the US is so all powerful, why is the $ worth less than the € ?
- you survived the recessions of '89 & '92 not by entrepreneurship, but by debt. long live the credit card. you constantly refinance your debt with new debt.
- in '90 america saved 8% of their BNP. now you are at 0%.
- in '60 your country had the biggest middleclass in the world, today your country has the biggest difference in income between lower & upper class amongst the top 30 industrial countries, only rivaled by Russia & Mexico.
- your current president is really doing his best to drive your country into even greater debt (and thats not only on the economical scale of things).

but most important of all:
- we have less lower class, we have less childmortality, we have better healthcare, we have less criminality.
- 26% of our BNP goes to social security. you might find that negative, but i find that quite positive indeed.
- we work less hours, we have more free time, we enjoy our money. we work to live, not live to work.

the american model doesnt suit us, so stop comparing us to it.
 
Haven't we gone over this stuff about twenty times over the past few years?
I seem to recall that each and every time the conclusion was that different cultures have different needs. Why would this be any different?
 
I read everything Zakaria writes with great care, he really is an interesting character, and he normally is right more times than he is wrong. And i won't dispute his "Europe in decline" thesis, although in economic terms it should be more like "the EU and the USA" decline, but that's ok.

It's often noted that the European Union has a combined gross domestic product that is approximately the same as that of the United States. But the EU has 170 million more people. Its per capita GDP is 25 percent lower than that of the U.S. and, most important, that gap has been widening for 15 years.

If you read these numbers carefully, wich he didn't this time, this just means the EU market is larger, therefore more atractive than the american. And how we already explained a lot of times in this forum, the US per capita GDP is so high because of the income of 1% of the population, the billionaires club. In Europe there's a lot more distribution of the rent, and in the Eurozone the fact remains that there are a lot more high income/low debt families than what happens throughout the States, with the exception of California.

Again the incredibly rich in America make a high GDP per capita, but don't give reliable numbers about how efective the distribution of rent is and how healthy the economy really is, and how the growth of the economy fueled on inequality (wich always happen, and is a good thing, if the inequalities aren't a products of distorting factors) has room for growth, and how that growth will affect the quality of living and how many will win from that growth.

Wich lead us again to the same question we had before, if most countries from the UN quality of life index are from the EU or Europe the problem in the future is what will happen to that good quality of living, giving the relative economic decay of the EU (relative giving Suazide arguments, German for instance is the greastest exporter in the world, beating the US and Japan) ?

And how will the lack of competitiviness and the structural deficits from the US play out in the future? At this point the only thig that keeps the economical machine of the US running is the monetary factor, meaning the US controls the flows of the monetary mass that is the centre of the internacional monetary system, wich allows the US to borrow at conditions that are unbearable to all the others, and provides a way to keep inflation controled.

If one day the ECB starts a lower value Euro policy and the Chinese use their "economic atom bomb", meaning they bought the largest percentage of american debt in the 90's until now, and they will use this one day, trust me on that, you will have a new depression, without beeing competitive enough to to fight it without a brutal rise in unemployement and the lost of investement capital to other countries.

Well this might not happen, i just wanted to ilustrate the idea that if the EU has a lot of weaknesses, and that is very much true, so the US, wich lives in an artificial economy fueled by the importance of the dollar, but the fundamentals are weak, like in the EU, for different reasons.

Zakaria should bet in China instead.
 
Glitch, Trend, Human Nature OR Living History!!!?

Glitch, Trend, Human Nature OR Living History!!!?


Briosafreak:
... so the US, which lives in an artificial economy fueled by the importance of the dollar, but the fundamentals are weak, like in the EU, for different reasons. ...

The Columbus Ohio area just ""won"" a distinction recently, became some statistical 'king of the hill'.

Most mortgage defaults.

Local purveyor of dog training cellulose fingered one of the 'local' spec builders, a track home shill-er, as selling too ''easy'' and snapping up the foreclosed properties, churning the money flow. Banks and other lenders just off in the shadows, tight lipped.
Several real-estate types under investigation for pyramid building. Base their ponesy scheme on pretending to renovate old housing bought cheap, in foreclosure. Churn the ""possible"" paper profits IF sold at some nebulous market value.

Meanwhile the party in power is running from the 'coin dealer',[ influence peddler,, con man, Republican, under multiple felony inditement]
by waving the 'holy' shirt --- it's the economy stupid --- (an infamous Dem' ploy, the powerful are not too proud to borrow ..or steal.)
""... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain ..."" (same hum bug smoke as the great Wizard of OZ).
Meanwhile . The Republican legislature is pooting out smoke and flashing regulatory mirrors, threaten the tightening of the predatory lending laws. Loose lending that has contributed to the Columbus region's 15 minutes of economic fame.

There are some who 'speculate' that the American housing industry may be reaching a 'bubble' state. It would be interesting if this gold rush mentality [irrational exuberance] and predatory lending [Holy Sweet Jesus's --- Temple campers!] would be the 'wind breaking' that knocks down the house of cards.

There was a major regional recession in the 1980's that got A MAJOR FEDERAL BAIL OUT. It was called the 'Savings And Loan" recession . Real savings went to spec building commercial properties, MALLS, from Ohio to the Rockies.

The savings and loan bank, Homestead, that figured in naming this exploitation of the American taxpayer by the Temple Campers,
{that hide in the top 5% [then] and tippy top 1% [NOW] } was based in this state, OHIO!

""Way to go Ohio!""

I know it takes money to make money, but why does the American tax payer have to fund the schemes of the 'friends' of our SELECTED officials. This goes beyond other strategic welfare, price supports for agriculture, Sweet heart deals to defense contractors, - liberation's - ''liberating WMD's"" for the greater glory of Haliburton - S. of A.
Now, bailing out criminal real estate schemes does not smell of capitalism, more like the 'team spirit' of state socialism, well perhaps "crony capitalism".



Oh, and and that ongoing ['forever'] recession in J-pan wasn't some of the preceding bubble inflated by the loans based on the square footage per yen per second, per second, that mythic accelerated rate of profit ... , [ accountants FINALLY get to use their sophomore calculus!} the sure th-ang, the 'once and future' value of downtown Tokyo REAL-ESTATE.


Perhaps the 'next' recession will be named after the local land speculators ... grand American tradition in predatory land spec'ing.
Central Ohio is plagued by pollsters, as being too average Americana. Wonder how prevalent, how pervasive, this con game is nationwide?
Mo' bett'a if it be labeled ""OHIO!""

""Way to go Ohio!""

So proud to be at the nexus of the, .. . , the end of Western Economic Domination. No need to brood, if it gets into the 40's Fahrenheit this sunny February, might root around in the garage fo' that old Tarot deck, 'n' lay some mo' predictions of 'hope and glory', Want to zero in on pretentious accuracy ....






4too
 
There are some who 'speculate' that the American housing industry may be reaching a 'bubble' state.

Between CNBC and Bloomberg Europe it's the less speculative "speculation" i can find. :)




There was a major regional recession in the 1980's that got A MAJOR FEDERAL BAIL OUT. It was called the 'Savings And Loan" recession .

My country was getting help from the IMF and the CEE to get back together at the time, so out governement was royally pissed when a few investements in th Savings and loans system in the USA went down the toillete. I remember that, it was before the stock crash in the late 80's and the widening of the budget and comercial deficits in the Bush father years.

All it takes to get back to those days is another stock markets crash, i guess...

And yeah, a large percentage from the liquidity crisis in the banking system in Japan went from the speculation in the real estate sector, but they did have a lower value currency and the capital to delocate, wich caused unemployement for the first time since the end of the 40's but didn't caused all the deflation that was expected.

If the real estate market slumps in the US then all the federal reserve policies to fight inflation will become redundant, and there will be deflation. I'm curious to see hoe the FED will act on that scenario, and how the administration will respond with a context of high oil prices and structural large dificit...

Or maybe nothing of this will happen, and everyone will be bailed out while the kids play Fallout5: A post-apoc FPS love Story.

While i might be very intrigued on the confidence of investors on the american economy, not of consumers, they tend to follow TV and not the early signs, yet again i want to make clear i do believe the EU economy is in trouble, don't misquote me on that CCR, please.
 
SuAside said:
- if the US is so all powerful, why is the $ worth less than the € ?

That's a ridiculous question. And there are so many good reasons for it. The easiest one would be that the dollar is in much wider circulation, which automatically devalues it.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
SuAside said:
- if the US is so all powerful, why is the $ worth less than the € ?

That's a ridiculous question. And there are so many good reasons for it. The easiest one would be that the dollar is in much wider circulation, which automatically devalues it.

It doesn't. The road to the dollar devaluation started on a meeting between the head of a large manufacturers association with President Bush in 2001, when he begged the President to support policies that could cause a fall on the value of the dollar, because exports were falling even more than usual. With the costs of reconstructing after 9/11, the wars on Afganistan and Iriraq, and the success of the Stability and Growth Pact on the Eurozone as a means of keeping the budget deficits in tight control (although for that we at the Eurozone had to endure an Hooverian cycle of cuts in the public sector during rerecessionwich i fear was a big mistake, and the French and the German still don't comply to the pact as they could, can't blame them though, sometimes real economy is a bitch for monetary economy), the Euro naturally went up and the dollar went down, giving some room for american exports, a potencial good thing for your economy wich, giving your comercial deficit, seems not to work as well as thought earlier.

There were other factors, but not the one you've said Lazarus.
 
Oh, more EU-bashing by our beloved CCR. You know, hate and anger are often caused by jealousy.

*yawn*

Carry on.
 
Thorgrimm said:
And does this idiotic statement highlight the epitome of European Brainpower?
No, but it highlights the epitome of Sheep Brainpower. Eh, frissy?
 
- the EU is the largest exporter in the world. also 61 of the 140 biggest corporations in the world are european. only about 50 american.
140? What the fuck kind of arbitrary number is that?

if the US is so all powerful, why is the $ worth less than the € ?
Wow, this matters so much. Truth is that the Dollar might be slightly unstable, but the Euro is founded upon a zero growth zone. That's the reason that no nation has been diversifying their stock of USD in favor of Yen or Euro.

- you survived the recessions of '89 & '92 not by entrepreneurship, but by debt. long live the credit card. you constantly refinance your debt with new debt.
Haha. Yeah, that's it. You just don't seem to get it, do you? Americans live in debt because we are the global consumer, meaning that tons of worldwide industries are founded upon our debt. That's the way it goes in the modern economy, right back to the 1920's.

in '90 america saved 8% of their BNP. now you are at 0%.
WTF is a BNP? British National Party?

- in '60 your country had the biggest middleclass in the world, today your country has the biggest difference in income between lower & upper class amongst the top 30 industrial countries, only rivaled by Russia & Mexico.
Excuse me while I don't give a shit. Just because we don't spend an inordinate amount of our GDP on social programs to promote some facade of 'egalitarianism' does not mean that our working class is starved and opoppressed Quite the opposite, just check a McDonald's.

- your current president is really doing his best to drive your country into even greater debt (and thats not only on the economical scale of things).
I agree here, but this is 2006, and he is out in 2008. And so is his entire fucking ideology.

- we have less lower class, we have less childmortality, we have better healthcare, we have less criminality.
You also have fuckall economic growth, fuckall population growth (making child mortality useless), and don't even get me started on 'Criminality', you are counting the US against individual Eurocountries, not per capita.

- 26% of our BNP goes to social security. you might find that negative, but i find that quite positive indeed.
That is because you are addicted to the poisonous milk of socialism's teat.

- we work less hours, we have more free time, we enjoy our money. we work to live, not live to work.
That's a mindset that never founded a hegemon right there.

the american model doesnt suit us, so stop comparing us to it.
The EXACT American model? Maybe not. But shit, you guys are going nowhere pretty fast.
 
John Uskglass said:
140? What the fuck kind of arbitrary number is that?
Just as arbitrary as any other number, really. Although this number really says jack shit.

Johnny said:
Wow, this matters so much. Truth is that the Dollar might be slightly unstable, but the Euro is founded upon a zero growth zone. That's the reason that no nation has been diversifying their stock of USD in favor of Yen or Euro.
The USD has lost a lot of support, though, and is starting to be replaced by the Euro in international trade.

Johnny said:
Haha. Yeah, that's it. You just don't seem to get it, do you? Americans live in debt because we are the global consumer, meaning that tons of worldwide industries are founded upon our debt. That's the way it goes in the modern economy, right back to the 1920's.
*cough*1928*cough*

Usk said:
WTF is a BNP? British National Party?
It's the Dutch acronym for GNP/GDP.

Glass said:
Excuse me while I don't give a shit. Just because we don't spend an inordinate amount of our GDP on social programs to promote some facade of 'egalitarianism' does not mean that our working class is starved and opoppressed Quite the opposite, just check a McDonald's.
Eh? 'Just check a McDonald's' is your response to this? What the fuck, John. We have McDonald's too, they also employ a lot of people from the 'social underclass'. That doesn't mean that the people who don't have a job for whatever reason aren't fucked, nor does it mean that the poor people are, on average, a lot poorer in the US than in Europe.

Johnny Glass said:
I agree here, but this is 2006, and he is out in 2008. And so is his entire fucking ideology.
Ehe. That's what was said in 2004 as well. 'Look, he's campaigning for more moderation!'
Pft.

JU said:
You also have fuckall economic growth, fuckall population growth (making child mortality useless), and don't even get me started on 'Criminality', you are counting the US against individual Eurocountries, not per capita.
Since when can child mortality be useful? ;)
All kidding aside, looking at that site I see a total of three (four if you count Russia) European (and EU) countries above the US. All other countries have *less* crimes per capita.
How, exactly, does this prove your point?
Uskglass said:
That is because you are addicted to the poisonous milk of socialism's teat.
'Socialism is bad, mkay.'

John said:
That's a mindset that never founded a hegemon right there.
He's not advocating you adopt it, is he?
 
Heh, saying fuck does not fortify your point, John.

Other than that I refuse to get involved in this debate as long as you cower away from Briosafreak's post. Good going stomping on a weaker reply, ignoring the one that, y'know, proves you wrong.
 
Well i do agree with the idea that Europe is going into some problems, i just wanted him to understand that those problems come with globalization, and while they hit countries in different manners they hit everyone, and the US is not imune, quite the contrary.
Wow, this matters so much. Truth is that the Dollar might be slightly unstable, but the Euro is founded upon a zero growth zone. That's the reason that no nation has been diversifying their stock of USD in favor of Yen or Euro.

John this doesn't make sense. Although others factors enter in the equation, suply and demand is still important in the monetary markets. So if there is more demand for the Dollar than there is for the Euro the Euro be worth less than the dollar, and that isn't happening.

Haha. Yeah, that's it. You just don't seem to get it, do you? Americans live in debt because we are the global consumer, meaning that tons of worldwide industries are founded upon our debt. That's the way it goes in the modern economy, right back to the 1920's.

You used to be a major producer too, that's the worrying part. Your comercial deficit is widening and with the Chinese buying out your debt you can get in a dificult position, sooner or later. To be honest you already are, but as i posted earlier the fact that your Fed creates the monetary units that feed most of the exchanges of goods and services in the world gives some room to maneuver, so as i've said before there's still time to get back to reality and search for new balances in the economy and finances, the Europeans are trying that too, inside the Eurozone, without much success, and in that i agree with Zakaria and you.

You also have fuckall economic growth, fuckall population growth (making child mortality useless), and don't even get me started on 'Criminality', you are counting the US against individual Eurocountries, not per capita.

Those numbers on criminality are a bit, hmmm, dubious, but ok.

For the rest go talk with someone from sociology, and you'll find out that development=negative growth in the population, as richness too. There are many many births in developing countries, but child mortality kills many, and less natality in developed countries, that's how it works, it's actually a sign of success in the economy and the conditions of living. If it wasn't for the immigrants in both sides of the Atlantic the numbers would be even lower.

That is because you are addicted to the poisonous milk of socialism's teat.

No it's Keynesian economics, made popular by an American President, Roosevelt. It works pretty well sometimes, the americans brought it here, with Marshall, truman and Ike helping out our social democrats and christian democrats in perfecting the model.

It worked well in the States too, at least until the domestic market was deemed less relevant in about 1959, read Reich, he has some wonderfull writings about that.

And remember that no State in Europe spends like the USA, that's the cause of the budget deficit, remember? You actually spend the same proprtion of your budget in health related programs than Portugal, for instance, and we have a free National Health Service...
 
Sheepism believes that humans are already a lower cast, so it doesn't really matter what nationality humans are.

But I'm on a diet (SO I CAN CONQUER THE WORLD WITH BUNS OF STEEL!) so I don't eat American people.

Plus they aren't crunchy either.

:puke:
________
HAWAII MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES
 
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