Feargus Urquhart at QuakeCon

[Verevoof]

i'm assuming...and i thought this was p. obvious...that Obsidian is basically using "Magazines" so as not to officially break/fuck with Bethesda's current "ownership" of canon instead of just saying "look, we think the whole books raising stats permanently is retarded so we're just gonna do it this way, mmkay?"

Maybe. But remember, Obsidian is not having perks every level. They are not just tip toeing around everything that Bethesda established with Fallout 3.

let's not do the "why do they disappear?" thing. books disappeared in Fallout 1 and 2. how many of you HONESTLY really have that much of an issue with this?
...
it's really not that big of a deal guys. this kind of nitpicking gets into that realm of arbitrary whinging which is--imo--incredibly unnecessary and silly.

It's just a little fun discussion. I certainly wasn't only referring to Fallout 3.

 

[Moester]

Am I the only one who thinks that those temporary boosts do not make any sense whatsoever ?

Lockpick scroll anybody ?

No, you're certainly not the only one. I for one think that it's pretty stupid. If a magazine has enough data to imply a boost in one's skill, what exactly is the difference between reading that data from a magazine and doing so from a book? Does the format or... I don't know, the type of paper, somehow affect your memory capacity? No, it doesn't make any sense, no matter how you look at it.

They could, and in my opinion should, have resolved it in a more logical way, maybe making them just slightly more common than books but giving considerably less skill points... I don't know. What I know is that, the way we have it now, it's just, as you pointed out, a "Lockpick scroll".

For the lockpick example the PC would be shuffling through technical details of locks and apply that information while picking the lock. PC doesn't have any actual knowledge or motivation to learn the stuff so it would be like reading a walkthough or spoiler, so he discards the magazine afterwards.

Well, that certainly wouldn't be a bad explanation... but if that were the case: what exactly would prevent you from using the books in the same way? Why would you discard the magazine after one reading, considering that it's logical to assume that there could be more similar situations in which you will need that piece of information that you decided not to keep in your memory?

No, I still don't see it

It makes about as much sense as reading a different copy of the same book and getting different information from it...

I would rather see a system where the skill increase is limited unless a specific use is made of that particular skill. And the higher a skill the more specific the "mini quest" For example your character who already has a high lock-picking skill reads a magazine. A message pops up and reads "this magazine has an article on the four tumbler lock mechanism and how to defeat it." Then you have to find and pick 4 high security locks in 24 hours for the skill boost to become permanent.

I could read a book on how to take a radiator apart and put it back together and I may even be able to do it without the book for a limited amount of time afterwards...but unless I do the action; I'll never remember what I learned.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Maybe. But remember, Obsidian is not having perks every level. They are not just tip toeing around everything that Bethesda established with Fallout 3.

right. ok, maybe not just Bethesda...but the history of "Books" in the series, period. they're obviously differentiating for a reason...and that reason is they appear to be more concerned with temp v. permanent than "text is text zomg!!" which is okey dokey with me.

 

[LionXavier]

But, perhaps the books, without length restrictions, go more in depth with a subject than a magazine, which is a smaller publication, where length of the articles matter a great deal.

I think that the other way around could be argued: if a text is more specific and concrete it's easier to learn and retain it.

i'm assuming...and i thought this was p. obvious...that Obsidian is basically using "Magazines" so as not to officially break/fuck with Bethesda's current "ownership" of canon instead of just saying "look, we think the whole books raising stats permanently is retarded so we're just gonna do it this way, mmkay?"

I don't know the motivations of Obsidian for doing it this way, but I think that if they really want a temporary skill boost method, and keeping in mind that skills are dependant upon stats, they could simply further develop a way already opened in the previous games: the drugs.

let's not do the "why do they disappear?" thing. books disappeared in Fallout 1 and 2. how many of you HONESTLY really have that much of an issue with this?

Well, it really wasn't an issue then, when reading a book meant to learn anything usefull from it and keep that knowledge forever. Here in FO:NV, with the magazines meaning just a temporary help, having the character automatically dispose of it after consulting it once is just... a little stupid.

Now that I think about it, the only previous game where disappearing books didn't make sense and could even be considered an issue is in Fallout:Tactics, where the knowledge provided by the limited issues of books could certainly be useful for more than one member of the squad.

it's really not that big of a deal guys. this kind of nitpicking gets into that realm of arbitrary whinging which is--imo--incredibly unnecessary and silly.

Of course it's not a big deal. Being sincere, I wouldn't call anything discussed in a game forum "a big deal". But the fact is that this magazine thing makes little to no sense, and I can't see any problem in pointing it out. As verevoof already said, it's just a little fun discussion, and I don't really think it can hurt anyone.

It makes about as much sense as reading a different copy of the same book and getting different information from it...

Who told you it was "the same book"? The fact that a given number of books belong to the same book series doesn't mean that all of them are the same issue.

they're obviously differentiating for a reason...and that reason is they appear to be more concerned with temp v. permanent than "text is text zomg!!" which is okey dokey with me.

The fact that they want to differentiate temporal and permanent (which is a fair intention) doesn't automaticaly makes the way they've implemented it to make sense. And in this case, it doesn't.

 

[frosty_theaussie]

Guys, it's clear as day. You're trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There's very little processed lumber. Paper is a rarity. Disappearing skill books and magazines represent paper lost to bowel movements. Think about it.

 

[LionXavier]

Guys, it's clear as day. You're trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There's very little processed lumber. Paper is a rarity. Disappearing skill books and magazines represent paper lost to bowel movements. Think about it.

This has to be the best explanation to it that I've heard so far . By the way... The fact that the books disappear just after being read would mean that every time the character does it he suddendly feels the need to go to de bathroom. It looks like reading has an strong effect in his intestines...

 

[frosty_theaussie]

Guys, it's clear as day. You're trying to survive in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There's very little processed lumber. Paper is a rarity. Disappearing skill books and magazines represent paper lost to bowel movements. Think about it.

This has to be the best explanation to it that I've heard so far . By the way... The fact that the books disappear just after being read would mean that every time the character does it he suddendly feels the need to go to de bathroom. It looks like reading has an strong effect in his intestines...

The urge to read a good rag and... drop the kids off at the pool can often coincide.

 

[dustin542]

Another explanation could be your reading while your at your campfire, waiting for your food to cook, and tearing off pages as you go to keep it going.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

they could simply further develop a way already opened in the previous games: the drugs.

i suppose that's true. but how many of you (us/me/whatever) would bitch about the disappearance of "skillbooks" since it's now a series standard?

having the character automatically dispose of it after consulting it once is just... a little stupid.

sorry. still not buying it. it's no more "stupid" than all of the nerdsite approved games like FO1, 2 Arcanum, BDG, etc. if you're gonna slag on this...you're sorta slaggin' on RPG history. it's an RPG device which materializes as "reading material". once again, bawwing even at a whimpering level about this is nitpicking silliness, imo. it just makes the outside world look at NMA/Fallout fans with perpetually rolling eyes.

I wouldn't call anything discussed in a game forum "a big deal".

oh, please. i'm not entering into a semantic discussion here. within the confines of NMA i'm only discussing Fallout. so when i say "big deal" i mean it contextually. and i remain on point: within the subject of Fallout, this is not a big deal and is silly to nitpick.

And in this case, it doesn't.

i'm sorry, man...nothing personal...but yes, it does. it makes perfect sense from an RPG game mechanic standpoint. it makes more sense than the similar mechanic from the original 2 games. if any of this bothers you i'd suggest starting from Fallout 1 and not acting like Obsidian are fucking up here, because frankly...this version of "skillbooks" makes more sense in a mechanics/balance manner than any of the other games did.

 

[zkylon]

How come no one's pointed out the impossiblity of digesting tomes worth of scientific knowledge in merely a few hours of reading or the lack of conversion rates between books (such as the big fat Dean's Electronics book holding an equiparable amount of information to a Guns and Bullets magazine? Ah, editors in post-apocapylptia!)?

No, no, no, this is all too unrealistic.

 

[SharkClub]

ITT: Nitpicking everything from books to rollercoasters

Seriously guys, give it up. Just be glad Obsidian is taking the franchise in the right direction (away from what Fallout 3 established).

 

[aenemic]

I think the magazines are a good idea. not great, but I certainly don't have any problems with them. not anymore than skill/stat-raising drugs for example.

I think Avellone explained it pretty well in his recent demo: reading a magazine will refresh your memory and keep your knowledge trimmed, hence the temporary boost. you could go into detail about exactly what you could read in these magazines that would help you in a certain situation, but that's the grand plan of rpg's to begin with: using your imagination.

 

[alec]

I like the mag idea, but only if they'd give you different (temp) stat boosts than those procured from books (which are perm). I like stuff like that. And Twinks is right: it's a recurring thing in RPGs. The Potion of Intellect does exactly that in Arcanum (it gives you a temp INT boost of up to 10 points, I think) and it's one of the most useful things in the game if you know how to use it. It's in Diablo and Diablo 2 as well, remember those shrines with temp boosts?

So yeah, I totally agree with Twinks: criticizing a gimmick that has been around in (action) RPGs for more than a decade, and a useful addition at that, well, criticizing that is just pointless.

The rollercaster and the neon signs, though, oh boy, those keep me awake at night. Not to mention the streamlined FPS mechanics.

 

[Meh]

Intellect potions alter one's chemical balance in brains or increase blood flow or whatever you would like to think. Same with drugs. Considering the realms of Arcanum and Diablo, things can be "explained" with magic as well. Fallout doesn't have magic (not even nanobots!).

These magazines fall into the same category with lab coats giving science boost. In a fantasy-themed world everything is just magically-enhanced, so that's ok, but Fallout is supposed to be naturalistic in this relation. Good for you if it doesn't matter, but if I'm ever going to get New Vegas - and modding is possible - magic magazines and magic armors will be the first things modded out.

you could go into detail about exactly what you could read in these magazines that would help you in a certain situation, but that's the grand plan of rpg's to begin with: using your imagination.

I thought this died with the 3 pixel high chairs.

 

[Ravager69]

And then overall we did want to be careful about having people focus on things, rather than becoming the master of everything. But again, you want the game to be fun, so you still want to be able to get good at most things and that's really kind of the road we went.

I am so glad to hear this.

 

[SkuLL]

Intellect potions alter one's chemical balance in brains or increase blood flow or whatever you would like to think. Same with drugs. Considering the realms of Arcanum and Diablo, things can be "explained" with magic as well. Fallout doesn't have magic (not even nanobots!).

These magazines fall into the same category with lab coats giving science boost. In a fantasy-themed world everything is just magically-enhanced, so that's ok, but Fallout is supposed to be naturalistic in this relation. Good for you if it doesn't matter, but if I'm ever going to get New Vegas - and modding is possible - magic magazines and magic armors will be the first things modded out.

I have to agree with ou on this one. It's obviously seen as nitpicking, but it is one thing that I reckon they could have done better.

At the same time, it's not a massive deal - I wouldn't want the readers of this forum to get the idea that we're a bunch of ungrateful bastards, finding something wrong with every bit of news we get our hands on, but it is illogical to have a temporary boost from magazines (or permanent boost from reading the same type of book over and over, for that matter).

 

[alec]

Intellect potions alter one's chemical balance in brains or increase blood flow or whatever you would like to think. Same with drugs. Considering the realms of Arcanum and Diablo, things can be "explained" with magic as well. Fallout doesn't have magic (not even nanobots!).

Arcanum also has the Herbology and Chemistry disciplines, no?
It's a bad example anyway. I'm talking about game mechanics, yet you're immediately referring to the setting again.

Also, there is this thing called Clarke's third law that states: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

BAM! There you have it. The debate is over.

These magazines fall into the same category with lab coats giving science boost.

I don't agree. The mags will give temp boosts. Temp as in temporary. It's like looking something up, like looking up a telephone number for pizza delivery. You remember that for as long as you need it and then you forget it again. Having the mags disappear on you afterwards is again a matter of game mechanics, I think: if you leave the mag, it sorta defies its purpose, doesn't it? Books disappear as well once you've read them. Is that realistic? No. It's a game mechanic. It's like drinking a potion or using a stimpak. You can use it once. Makes sense to me. I mean: your money doesn't stay put after you've purchased something with it either, now does it?

Fallout is supposed to be naturalistic in this relation.

Naturalistic? Que?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

At the same time, it's not a massive deal - I wouldn't want the readers of this forum to get the idea that we're a bunch of ungrateful bastards, finding something wrong with every bit of news we get our hands on

which, i guarantee you...many posters are so used to doing nobody really seems to be paying attention or playing fair anymore. just arbitrarily slagging because they're so used to it. and yes, it hurts the reputation of the community when outsiders cannot take you seriously because of this (trust me, many don't).

but it is illogical to have a temporary boost from magazines (or permanent boost from reading the same type of book over and over, for that matter).

see, i'm glad you included that last part. this whole "nit-pick the magazine idea" party we're having here seems to be ignoring the fact that the implementation of this mechanic is no more or less logic-defying than it's relative-mechanic (books) which has been in the series from the start. in my entirely un-humble opinion, if you're going to complain about magazines you damn well better complain about the books too because trust me, i can keep making cases for or against both or either of them all day long (you don't want this).

the magic clothes though, i'll agree with the lack of necessity for them. one of the worst differences between the original Fallouts was the intense focus on playing "dress up!" and "house!" which Fallout 3 seemed to intentionally nudge the player into giving a fuck about and getting ridiculously larpy. like, hey...i like to get into my character too...but i don't need a mechanic which makes my character more intelligent because he's wearing a fucking wig. sure there were the "Charisma Sunglasses" in FO2, but c'mon. i'll take a few easter eggs or what-have-you, but the clothes really went over the top in FO3.

 

[SkuLL]

but it is illogical to have a temporary boost from magazines (or permanent boost from reading the same type of book over and over, for that matter).

see, i'm glad you included that last part. this whole "nit-pick the magazine idea" party we're having here seems to be ignoring the fact that the implementation of this mechanic is no more or less logic-defying than it's relative-mechanic (books) which has been in the series from the start.

Indeed. Of course, they're both illogical (books and magazines).

The only realistic solution is (IMO) to have loads of different books that you read once, and that add a tiny permanent bonus each, and then become useless (but still can be sold). You'd need a few different books for each skill - like 4-5 different science books that each raise your science a bit, and are distributed carefully throughout the game as not to damage the balance.

Any magically disappearing books/magazines are not realistic. Neither is gaining knowledge for a limited amount of time. Sure "It's like you forget it", but you don't forget how to shoot a gun either. But just because they're unrealistic, doesn't mean they're bad for the game - I for one think the magazines will be great and have nothing against them.

Just don't like people trying to rationalise this obviously unrealistic feature. It's unrealistic, but you don't have to make up reason for why it could technically be realistic. It's not. But it is good for the game. I mean, it's unrealistic to earn XPs by killing radscorpions, then levelling up and spending the XP on speech, too. No point trying to rationalise that, either - it's just part of the game and it works.

 

[LionXavier]

i suppose that's true. but how many of you (us/me/whatever) would bitch about the disappearance of "skillbooks" since it's now a series standard?

And why should the skillbooks be eliminated? They can remain like they've been until now: books for permanent skill boost and drugs for temporary ones. What's the problem?

it's an RPG device which materializes as "reading material".

But from the moment this 'RPG device' is materialized as "reading material", the developers must come up with a better excuse for making ones permanent and others temporal than labeling them "books" and "magazines" respectively if they want to make some sense.

once again, bawwing even at a whimpering level about this is nitpicking silliness, imo. it just makes the outside world look at NMA/Fallout fans with perpetually rolling eyes.

Uh... I don't know how pointing out an incoherence equals to "bawwing". And also I don't know why what other people think should affect you so much.

oh, please. i'm not entering into a semantic discussion here. within the confines of NMA i'm only discussing Fallout. so when i say "big deal" i mean it contextually. and i remain on point: within the subject of Fallout, this is not a big deal and is silly to nitpick.

Well, even if we're going by your standpoint, I've never claimed this was a big deal, haven't I? But that is hardly an argument. It not being a big deal doesn't prevent it from not making sense.

i'm sorry, man...nothing personal...but yes, it does. it makes perfect sense from an RPG game mechanic standpoint. (...) this version of "skillbooks" makes more sense in a mechanics/balance manner than any of the other games did.

Uh... I thought I already made myself clear about this, but I will repeat myself: the fact that it makes sense as an RPG mechanic doesn't mean that so will do the way it's presented in-game. I'm not criticizing its value as a game mechanic, but the logic and coherence of the way it is implemented.

Does it make sense to want to have both temporary and permanent skill boosts for gameplay balance?: Yes
Does It make sense that the knowledge acquired from reading a document is better memorized depending on the format of said document?: Unless you believe in magic, no.

Oh, and... by the way, just a sincere question: Why should I take anything you say as 'something personal'? Rest assured that it's not the case

Seriously guys, give it up. Just be glad Obsidian is taking the franchise in the right direction (away from what Fallout 3 established).

Considering that Bethesda established that a major part of Fallout 3 would be being a shooter with minigames, I wouldn't say, from that standpoint, that the Obsidian direction is that right.

I think the magazines are a good idea. not great, but I certainly don't have any problems with them. not anymore than skill/stat-raising drugs for example.

The difference being that all drugs are coherent in that all their stat boost are temporal (coherent between them and with common sense). But here we have that some texts are better memorized than others just because of the medium they are published in.

I think Avellone explained it pretty well in his recent demo: reading a magazine will refresh your memory and keep your knowledge trimmed, hence the temporary boost.

Touching, but the question still stands: Why should it be different in the case of a book?

The Potion of Intellect does exactly that in Arcanum (it gives you a temp INT boost of up to 10 points, I think) and it's one of the most useful things in the game if you know how to use it.

One of the most useful things... or one of the most powerfully unbalanced things?
Anyway, I think that this comparison isn't that good. First, the potion is literally a consumable: you actually use it up when you drink it, which can't be said about reading a magazine. Secondly, we're talking about magic (better said: Magick) in the case of Arcanum, while in the case of FO:NV it's a natural and reflected-in-reality act (reading).

Considering Arcanum, I think that a better comparison would be the Tech-manuals: they are readable material, they give you a skill (tech-skill) bonus and that bonus isn't permanent (as long as you drop them from your inv.). The difference with FO:NV's magazines being that the tech-manuals aren't "used up" after you use them to build a scheme.

So yeah, I totally agree with Twinks: criticizing a gimmick that has been around in (action) RPGs for more than a decade, and a useful addition at that, well, criticizing that is just pointless.

I've already said it: this is not criticizing a Rpg gimmick, but criticizing the way it's implemented in game. To better see it, just imagine that, instead of a magazine, it were literally a 'lockpicking scroll'. Yes, a magic 'lockpicking scroll' inside Fallout. It would be a pretty good and balanced temporary skill boost and all that from a gameplay mechanic standpoint, but still a magic scroll. I know that the example is far-fetched, but what I mean is that the fact that a gameplay mechanic is adequate doesn't automatically justify the way it's presented in the game no matter how little sense it makes.

this whole "nit-pick the magazine idea" party we're having here seems to be ignoring the fact that the implementation of this mechanic is no more or less logic-defying than it's relative-mechanic (books) which has been in the series from the start.

The only thing that is logic-defying within in-game consistence is that there are differences in the way you memorize information (gain skill points) from a text just because of the format you read it from.