How would you feel about a "No Save RPG"?

D

Davaris

Still Mildly Glowing
I've had an idea for an RPG where you can't save your game (the computer would handle it) and if you got killed your save game would be deleted. In this RPG there would be no compromise option, as it would be clearly labelled a "Hard RPG".

The idea is to get away from the boring hack and slash and levelling RPG with endless maps and lazy design. You would have to think about every decision because if you make the wrong one your game is over.

Would you love or hate this type of game? Or would you not care?

I don't care if you think it would exclude the majority of players. All I'm interested in is how *you* would react when confronted with this type of game.
 
I mostly play my games this way already. I don't see a real reason to force players to play this way, but I always appreciate it when there are rewards or bonuses for it.
 
I mostly play my games this way already. I don't see a real reason to force players to play this way, but I always appreciate it when there are rewards or bonuses for it.
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But what would you think if you saw a game like this?
 
it would have to save at important parts of the game...

i think of something like a modified version of fable...

when you arent doing a quest, you can save everything... but when you are on a quest/goal then you cant save period. if you fail or have to re-load, you lose all the progress.
 
For me, it would really depend on the difficulty, length and how much of the game depended on luck or random rolls. If "death" or losing the game were completely factors within my control, ie my skill or my characters stats/abilities, I could see it being pretty fun and engrossing. On the other hand, if a bad roll or some other random factor could kill me at any point I wouldn't touch it. I had enough of those type of games in my NES days and I don't get any enjoyment out of having to start over after hours and hours of progress just to return to the point where some random number generator killed me.
 
Did you play Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil? There was an optional Ironman mode in which you could play the game.

I believe the game design would play a major part in the game. If the game was competently designed for the entire game length, I think it would work quite well. However, I doubt any design team's ability to pull off the balancing act required to create this sort of game well.
 
To get the effect I want this would be a no compromise game. If you get yourself killed, your character would be deleted.

However it would be a fair game. For instance if there was an electrical trap, you would be given a clue if you had the presence of mind to look. Also there would be no one really bad roll and you're dead type of combat either.

I can just see the players totally focused on the game when they play it and smashing the keyboard when they are stupid and get themselves killed. :)
 
I believe the game design would play a major part in the game. If the game was competently designed for the entire game length, I think it would work quite well. However, I doubt any design team's ability to pull off the balancing act required to create this sort of game well.
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Yes I think it would have to be a smaller game because of that point. So it would need replayability similar to Fallout's multi-path design.

I think part of the problem with todays RPGs is they have to be massive (and are boring), because many players force their way through by constantly reloading in harder areas.
 
Davaris said:
I've had an idea for an RPG where you can't save your game (the computer would handle it) and if you got killed your save game would be deleted.
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Did you get this idea before or after Nethack/Rogue?

Davaris said:
The idea is to get away from the boring hack and slash and levelling RPG with endless maps and lazy design.
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The irony.
 
Wow, now thats an idea! Though its not necessarily new its so old that things were that way that really its "new".

Like the others are saying it would be good as long as there are no "instant death" things that could end it in spite of what you do to avoid it.

Personally it would be excellent if it were a "mode" as Kotario mentioned about "The Temple of Elemental Evil".

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
I know I wouldn't touch this hypothetical forty-foot pole. The 'Ironman' thing just isn't my bag, probably because I suck at games.

What I would like to see is the savegame system used in 'The Last Express' implemented in a modern RPG- in that game your save was a continuous stream and you could re-load it at any point you had already passed.
 
Kotario said:
Did you play Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil? There was an optional Ironman mode in which you could play the game.
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Yes. Quite a few games do actually include an "Ironman" mode, which I always enjoy. Some, like the Warlords Battlecry series, have multiple styles of that same idea, each granting different bonuses based on how severe the punishment, with the hardest setting resulting in the end of your campaign and the deletion of your character from use in any other campaigns upon death, but earning you double the experience points through out the game.

Davaris said:
Yes I think it would have to be a smaller game because of that point. So it would need replayability similar to Fallout's multi-path design.
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Thats really a poor reason to say the game has to be small. Unless the game does not save your progress at all, meaning you have to beat the game in a single sitting (Which is just stupid.) Games like the ones I have previously mentioned, or for example, Diablo 2's "Hardcore" mode, were not short at all, yet still enforced the "single life" rule.
 
Did you get this idea before or after Nethack/Rogue?
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I have never played the NetHack or Rogue games as dungeon crawling bores me to tears.

I got the idea from a card game. Apparently all of the card games you can buy on the net have endless undos and you can also stack the deck in your favour. But then I read about one guy who broke into the card game market by offering a game where you cannot cheat. So I started thinking about how the no cheat rule would change the way a computer RPG is designed and played.
 
Pajari said:
What I would like to see is the savegame system used in 'The Last Express' implemented in a modern RPG- in that game your save was a continuous stream and you could re-load it at any point you had already passed.
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That would be exceedingly difficult, as you not only have to track the event variables for what happens in the saves, but you also have to put in extra information to designate exactly how the character progressed for each and every point, every action taken that has a lasting effect upon the world, etc.

Not a bad idea, but it would be a total headache to program and the design of the entire game has the likelihood of revolving around that feature because of that.
 
Thats really a poor reason to say the game has to be small. Unless the game does not save your progress at all, meaning you have to beat the game in a single sitting (Which is just stupid.) Games like the ones I have previously mentioned, or for example, Diablo 2's "Hardcore" mode, were not short at all, yet still enforced the "single life" rule.
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This game would handle all of the saving for you. So you could shut it down when you're not in combat mode and your game would be saved.

It would require a lot more work and be harder to balance than other RPGs. You couldn't be a lazy designer and fill areas up with really hard critters and death traps.

Also if you made the game a 50-80 hr epic and the player got killed 45 hours in, they would go postal for sure. :)
 
I'd like to see something done to discourage save-fail-load syndrome, but having my character deleted on death would soon piss me off. Probably if I knew about that feature before hand I wouldn't even buy the game.

How would the game be designed? World map, continous world, individual levels? Auto saving between areas and on exiting the game would be much better (without the character deleting), if you get killed you'd only have to replay a small amount of the game. Perhaps with a limited ability to save where and when you want, so if you've been through a hard fight you don't want to replay you can save at that point but then can't save again in that area.

Basically if people want to cheat they will, with your system you'd probably have people exiting the game before a fight, backing up the save game file and then if they get killed they'd just copy the saved game back again and then try again.
 
Basically if people want to cheat they will, with your system you'd probably have people exiting the game before a fight, backing up the save game file and then if they get killed they'd just copy the saved game back again and then try again.
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Yes this is something I'd have to find a solution for. I'd probably hide a second file that tracks the time/size info of the current file and change the method slightly every update I make. Or I could use an internet system. Anyway I'd have to ask some cracker types the best way to do this, as I'm no cracker.

One thing I've learned from the people in the protection industry is the only way to frustrate crackers is to continually change your method.
 
Davaris said:
However it would be a fair game. For instance if there was an electrical trap, you would be given a clue if you had the presence of mind to look. Also there would be no one really bad roll and you're dead type of combat either.

I can just see the players totally focused on the game when they play it and smashing the keyboard when they are stupid and get themselves killed. :)
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That I can deal with - it's frustrating, but it's a good kind of frustrating making you want to be a better and more attentive player, rather than the kind that makes you swear at the computer and want to throw it out the window.

Now that TOEE is as stable as it's going to get I might give Ironman mode a try. Davaris, have you thought about having a party rather than a single player? One of the things that actually makes me want to play TOEE in Ironman mode is that a few stupid mistakes or a string of bad rolls isn't necessarily going to end your game - it might mean the death of one or more favorite or best characters, but having other party members and the ability to recruit new ones means that it's just a setback instead of game ending and eliminates what is probably the main use and need of a save/load system in the first place, for me at least.
 
i wouldnt like it much. i like to experiment with situations, which often means failing on purpose as well. "what would happen if i were to try this" (even though i'd never do that in my 'real' game, i want to try it out & find out without having to entirely start my game over).

how much depth would a 'hardcore' game have? why put endless possibilities in the game, if the player can only try 1 per playcycle (which is hopefully more than the standard 30hours)? adding that much depth would barely make a difference, since only very little people would actually bother.

how dangerous would it actually be? players would get pissed off if they were really easy to kill (as they should be in a normal game, what excitement is there if you're an ubermensch that rarely dies?)

at best, this seems like a gimmick for people who know the game inside out already. just a mode to lengthen the games lifespan.
 
Davaris said:
I have never played the NetHack or Rogue games as dungeon crawling bores me to tears.
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Go play them, they're great games (well, NetHack especially). The gameplay isn't that new, but the games have a lot of exploration and invention to it most other games don't. They also have the 'no save' rule. You play a character, and if it dies, you have to start over. Effectively this means that you grow to be a lot more careful with your character, and feel more attached to it once you develop a good character that has experienced a bit.
 
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