Will the U.S fall apart soon?

[Sn1p3r187]

With the way things are going now I'm beginning to think with either Clinton or Trump in office the U.S is still going to fall apart. Albeit faster under Trump and slower under Clinton. I think more people are getting pissed off from high taxes, meaningless and faulty healthcare programs, the Republicans starting a war among themselves and pushing a neo-fascist agenda, fighting wars on false beliefs, fighting wars that aren't our business, and corporate control and failure to make policies to limit what they can do in hopes there won't be another great recession. If anything the NCR mirrored the modern U.S and vice versa. It really feels sooner rather than later there's gonna be an internal revolt, a revolution and likely there won't be much of a democrat or republican party left and the country's gonna be at war with itself once again fighting between people who push themselves further into the world's business and pushing the MERICA agenda and the people who want us to retract so we can worry about our own problems at home. What do you think? Do you have any thoughts?

 

[Hassknecht]

"High taxes"?
Oh yeah, this is the country that flipped the fuck out when the limeys marginally raised taxes on sugar and stamps which they didn't even collect, anyway.

 

[Earth]

Nah, if there's any kind "revolution" or violent uprising it will be neutralised. NCR in Fallout isn't strong enough to hold it's territory, so revolutions are possible. USA, on the other hand? I'd like to see those 2nd Amendment gun-hoarders take on a US military chinook.

 

[Sn1p3r187]

Nah, if there's any kind "revolution" or violent uprising it will be neutralised. NCR in Fallout isn't strong enough to hold it's territory, so revolutions are possible. USA, on the other hand? I'd like to see those 2nd Amendment gun-hoarders take on a US military chinook.

Eh give em rocket launchers and that won't be a problem. The only way that'll succeed is stealing weapons from armories.

 

[Earth]

"Stealing weapons from armouries". Good luck with that.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be condescending or anything (I am British though, so it's kinda the default persona). But the USA collapsing? I can't see it happening anytime soon.

There might some internal conflicts, some violent outbursts. But they'll fizzle out after the first few riots are subdued.

 

[Sn1p3r187]

"Stealing weapons from armouries". Good luck with that.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be condescending or anything (I am British though, so it's kinda the default persona). But the USA collapsing? I can't see it happening anytime soon.

There might some internal conflicts, some violent outbursts. But they'll fizzle out after the first few riots are subdued.

Wel lyou have a point. The best that could be hoped for is that the government pays attention to this as well as listen to the people and know that some change needs to happen.

 

[Crni Vuk]

"High taxes"?
Oh yeah, this is the country that flipped the fuck out when the limeys marginally raised taxes on sugar and stamps which they didn't even collect, anyway.

You know, I never understood this huge american fear of taxes. I mean, it's like some kind of boogeyman for them. Lower taxes! Less government! More enteprise! Funny enough though, they are so concerned about government controll and allowing more enterprises to grow, but fail to realize the changes over the last 100 years or so.
In 1945 corporations paid 50% of the federal taxes, now maybe 5%. In 1900 90% of the Americans were self employed. Today? 10,3 million, that's less than 10%

And they fear the government controlling the people ...

 

[Walpknut]

People from the US seem super pranoid about their country just collapsing out of nowhere almost every year... It's pretty weird how unsure about your country you seem to be when the stereotype is also the "'MURIKA NUMBER ONE!!!!!". Unless there is nuclear warfare involved countries don't just fall apart in a day, even with internal conflict, specially one as big as the US. Just look at Colombia, we have been almost 50 years with our little piece of hell and the country is still pretty much standing, hell the Dollar grows stronger every day too...

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

You know, I never understood this huge american fear of taxes. I mean, it's like some kind of boogeyman for them. Lower taxes! Less government! More enteprise! Funny enough though, they are so concerned about government controll and allowing more enterprises to grow, but fail to realize the changes over the last 100 years or so.
In 1945 corporations paid 50% of the federal taxes, now maybe 5%. In 1900 90% of the Americans were self employed. Today? 10,3 million, that's less than 10%

And they fear the government controlling the people ...

The government takes money from you at gunpoint, corporations give you jobs and products. I know that there is nothing the leftist fears more than an honest job, but I still think that the difference is obvious.

All the graphs and info I found on it put the largest percentage corporations paid at some 40 % during WWII. You make it sound as if corporate taxation had a continuous trend of falling since forever while it was only raised during the war. The percentage today is the same as it was in the mid 30s. And let's not pretend that the rich don't pay the vast majority of the taxes anyway.

As for the self-employment figures, Albania and Azerbaijan have it at about 60 %, and they aren't exactly paradises to live in, are they? And then there's the fact that self-employment rates plummeted due to rapid advancements in agriculture. And where, besides Deus Ex, did you find the 90% figure for 1900?

Regarding the US falling apart, I don't think so. Morally, yes, especially if Hillary wins, but outright balkanization? Not likely, unless something drastic happens.

 

[Walpknut]

The governement takes money from you to give you benefits. The corporations give less and less money in exhange for owning your life and lobbying so they have to give you less and less benefits and to crush small businesses and even farmers. Anyone who thinks corporations are their friends is an idiot.

The government is the reason corporations can't force you to work 7 days a week and have to give you sick leaves and vacations. Hell they are the ones behind orporations having a limit for how little they can pay people instead of them choosing themselves and being able to exploit the most in need.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

The governement takes money from you to give you benefits. The corporations give less and less money in exhange for owning your life and lobbying so they have to give you less and less benefits and to crush small businesses and even farmers. Anyone who thinks corporations are their friends is an idiot.

They don't have to be your friend. But they're a whole lot friendlier than the government. For starters, they don't force you to associate with them. I don't remember being sent to jail, fined, or shot for not buying an iPhone, while I certainly would have been if I didn't want to pay my taxes.

As for benefits, some people just don't want them.

If you don't want a corporation to tell you how many days a week to work and for how much money, don't work for it. It's that simple.

 

[Walpknut]

Some people have been brainwashed by political pundits into wanting to not be treated like humans. How adorable. No wait, how disturbing.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Some people have been brainwashed by political pundits into wanting to not be treated like humans. How adorable. No wait, how disturbing.

Taking my chances in a free market makes me feel a whole lot more human than having a bunch of parasites steal my money and use it to buy votes.

 

[Walpknut]

It's only a free market for big corporations, the only position you are having on it is that of a peon.
People can develop Stockholm Syndrome for corporatiosn too it seems.

It's pretty interesting, some people actually look at dystopian worlds and think "Yes! that's where I want to live!".

Anyone who buys the concyept of the "free market" is a moron, or just extremely naive, maybe dressed up with some selective obliviousness.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

It's only a free market for big corporations, the only position you are having on it is that of a peon.
People can develop Stockholm Syndrome for corporatiosn too it seems.

It's pretty interesting, some people actually look at dystopian worlds and think "Yes! that's where I want to live!".

Anyone who buys the concyept of the "free market" is a moron, or just extremely naive, maybe dressed up with some selective obliviousness.

Yes, because corporations aren't run by people, but reptillians and vampires.
Gee, I wonder which is your chosen profession? It must be something very useful which would make you prosper in a free market.

 

[Walpknut]

Corporations are run by people who want to make as much money as possible. With no regulations they can just do whatever they want, and even with regulations they still go for the path that leads to more money and less altruism.

My profession? Software developer, mostly focused on the Design aspect altho I still have to code and plan out interfaces, what's yours?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Taking my chances in a free market makes me feel a whole lot more human than having a bunch of parasites steal my money and use it to buy votes.

You mean the same parasites like you - probably, I mean I don't know anything about you, but I am pretty confident that you used at least some service the Government provides at some point in your life. And I use the term Parasite with all respect of course! You are part of a society, what ever if you like paying taxes or not.

Maybe with the streets/public infrastructure you used in your youth to attent public schools for free education. Benefiting today as adult from the (realtive) safety of free protection by the police forces, and the jurisdiction. And hopefully, in the unfortunate event of a severe fire in your home, to be resuced, for free of course, by fire fighters. And receiving the best possible treatment in the nearest hospital by doctors, which most probably received their high quality education in said nation, tested and affirmed by the government you oppose so much.

Just that you get this right. No one here says the government is always right or perfect in everything it does. But we are talking about administrations and management on lower levels, like towns and states. This idea you have about corporate leadership simply didn't work in the past.

Taking my chances in a free market makes me feel a whole lot more human than having a bunch of parasites steal my money and use it to buy votes.

Yes. Having it stolen from you by industrial Rober Barons and corporations giving a shit about work ethics is of course much better.
We had those times already some 200 years ago. It was called the Industrial Revolution. And it has shown how ugly it is for the people. So severe that even Bismarck, who oposed socialism like the devil the holy water, had to FORCE social reforms on the industry.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Corporations are run by people who want to make as much money as possible. With no regulations they can just do whatever they want, and even with regulations they still go for the path that leads to more money and less altruism.

My profession? Software developer, mostly focused on the Design aspect altho I still have to code and plan out interfaces, what's yours?

Are you saying you don't want to make as much money as possible? That the primary driving force behind your economic behavior is altruism? Ultimately, that the driving force behind governments who make those regulations is altruism?

I don't have a profession yet.

You mean the same parasites like you - probably, I mean I don't know anything about you, but I am pretty confident that you used at least some service the Government provides at some point in your life. And I use the term Parasite with all respect of course! You are part of a society, what ever if you like paying taxees or not.
Maybe with the streets/public infrastructure you used in your youth to attent public schools for free education. Benefiting today as adult from the (realtive) safety of free protection by the police forces, and the jurisdiction. And hopefully, in the unfortunate event of a severe fire in your home, to be resuced, for free of course, by fire fighters. And receiving the best possible treatment in the nearest hospital by doctors, which most probably received their high quality education in said nation, tested and affirmed by the government you oppose so much.

Just that you get this right. No one here says the government is always right or perfect in everything it does. But we are talking about administrations and management on lower levels, like towns and states. This idea you have about corporate leadership simply didn't work in the past.

So if money is stolen from me and mine, and I use something that was created by this stolen money, I'm the parasite? Interesting.

All the examples you just gave also apply to slaves on a plantation, except the education.

The "free protection by police forces" never, ever helped me at all, while I could have helped myself with far less effort if they didn't do everything in their power to prevent me and others being armed.

Also... best possible treatment? From state doctors?

All the bad things the robber barons did, they did through government power. And still, most things that they did benefited most people. Bismarck didn't like socialism, but he wasn't exactly allergic to power either, and he simply recognized a good way of holding more of it.

 

[Walpknut]

When I make money it usually doesn't involve fucking people over and enforcing borderline slave labor. I am a worker not the one running the company, and while I have a good relationship with my bosses I still have to actively remind them of what an employer is not allowed to do, like when someone on the chain forgot to inform us that the last payment of my Government enforced company paid health insurance didn't go through.

"I don't have a profession yet."

Oh isn't that adorable, you don't even have a jobe yet yo uare accusing others of "fearing honest work". This shit is like out of a stand up routine.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So if money is stolen from me and mine, and I use something that was created by this stolen money, I'm the parasite? Interesting.

Tell me, where is the difference by the government taking the money from you to provide you with an infrastructure that you use most probably daily. And paying corporations to do pretty much the same job, but for more money, while offering most of the time less quality.

The reality is, you end up paying either way, unless your plan is to live in the woods as self sufficient hermit.

Quote:
Paris: local authorities regain control of water management
(...)
The newly elected team were quick to realise that there was total lack of any control over the “delegation” of public sector services, as well as of the provision of services. There was a serious lack of financial transparency, and no control over any work that was carried out.
(...)

Is public management necessarily more virtuous than private?

It is too soon to be able to carry out any evaluation, as the public system has only been operating since January 1st 2010. But it is possible to observe some of the initial advantages of being under public management. Firstly, it is important to underline the big profits that the reform has produced; this money is totally reinvested in the water services. These initial profits are an estimated 35 million euros per annum, if not more. What are the main reasons for this? It is the result of internalising of the profits that the private operators were making. We have public competitive calls for tender for work that was previously handed out to subsidiaries of the major groups that overcharged for carrying it out. We are making the most of a public accounting system. There is no need to pay dividends to shareholders and to set aside part of the profits generated by the water services to pay them. All the revenue from the provision of water services is totally reinvested in the service, and there is complete financial transparency, unlike the previous situation under the private system, where the lack of financial clarity was repeatedly criticized in financial controls.

This idea of corporations run by the people for the people is neat, but it's utopian. And ignoring human nature completely.

You can not run a whole nation just with corporations. Because even corporations benefit heavily(!) from a state with a government. Particularly when you consider how often they end up in curts or dealing with ilegal bullshit by competitors.

*Edit
And I am not saying the government should run EVERYTHING. Free enterprises have to exist and it has to be possible. But when it comes to matters that touch the public as whole? Like fire fighting, water supply, infrastructure? It's better to keep it in public hands for the benefit of everyone. Doesn't mean the government can't make deals with local companies. If the government has to repair streets or maintain bridges, they will use companies to do the job, hiring freelance engineers and road construction companies. So, even if you're paying taxes, some of the money is geting back to the people, as some of it is also used with companies doing a job.

The "free protection by police forces" never, ever helped me at all, while I could have helped myself with far less effort if they didn't do everything in their power to prevent me from being armed.

Also... best possible treatment? From state doctors?

Really? It never did? Not even once? Can you not imagine at least once case where it might be helpfull. You know, just because you never had to use the police, doesn't mean they are not there and doing their job. Traffic laws, fighting crime, investigation and so on. You do benefit from the relative safety that is estabiled by law enforcements. What ever if you use them directly or not.

When I am talking about doctors, I am not talking about state doctors, I am talking about verification from independed authorities, so that not everyone can call him self a doctor or internist, just because they got their certificate for 20 000 dollar by the Huckleberry Finn Acadame from the Bahamas. There has to be some standard.

You want to see corporate education in action?

All the examples you just gave also apply to slaves on a plantation, except the education.

Absolutely ...